Picking your braking point

[DC_McGregor]

Since I have started racing SCGT, I have been much better about marking my points in a corner. While I was racing PU, I was pretty careless about it, as I've acknowledged in RL101.

The most common (and poorer) way is to have a picture in your mind that you look for. A much better and more consistant way is to pick an outstanding feature by the side of the road and use that.

Which point? I can only tell you the way that I do it. There may be a better way.

I start by estimating the likely best apex for the corner (early, mid or late) and work backwards. To hit that apex, I will have to turn in at a certain point. I'll approach the corner slowly to locate that point and pick a marker for it. Now that I have my turn in point marked, I can start working find the braking point. When I've found the latest point that I can begin braking and still slow down enough to turn in (at my turn in point) and hit my apex point, I find a marker for it. That's my braking point.

One more point to consider: the "turn-out" point.

When you've finished your sharpest turning (before the apex), you begin accelerating past that apex towards the outside of the road. Look ahead (again, before the apex) to the point at which you will be nearest to the outside of the road. That's your turn-out point. Pick a marker.

This last marker can be invaluable. If you can see that you're not going to make your marker, you'll know that you're off line and have to lift and see it earlier before you have to lose too much speed making a correction. If you see that you will make it, you know that you can continue accelerating.

After you have had enough practice on any corner, you'll be able to make small adjustments of these markers and improve your speed.

The most common error I've seen in both SCGT and PU is braking too late. If you brake too late, you turn in too late and you cannot hit either your apex or your turn-out point. And you will be a lot slower. I am not a late braker. I'd rather brake a bit early and be sure of my line. And I post respectable lap times. It's when I try to brake just that little bit later that I get into trouble.

Robert

May I also point out that you must complete all of your braking in a straight line, even if it means moving the apex further round a corner.. Do NOT try to turn whilst braking for a turn, you'll just unsettle the back of the car and probably spin.

And also, it is wise when starting heavy braking to lightly brake first, to bring the car down on the suspension, then you can start braking more heavily.

Also, when driving fast, you have to ease up on the steering wheel, use a light touch, don't try to strangle the steering wheel. In the really high speed zone, above 200km/hr, you have to be very steady and easy on the major controls of the vehicle, any changes to the course or speed of the car (IE braking, cornering) must be done smoothly.

Furthermore, your seat must be positioned far enough forward so that when you are applying maximum steering lock, your shoulders shouldn't move forward from the seat back.

My points here are for real life racing, but, some apply equally well to computer racing simulations too.

[FIATLOVE]

In many situations you can stabilize the car infront of a turn by let of the gas pedal instead of braking. This method can be used in situations with high speed where braking causes unwanted movements to the car-chassis. You have to let of the gaspedal at an earlier point than the brakingpoint because it takes longer time to reach lower speed than braking, on the other hand it's possible to go trough the turn at higher speed. This is not a technique for general turns (they have to be open at the end), and I will not tell you where I use this trick...
But sometimes an ordinare braking will cause unwanted movements in the car and that again will take time to fix to get back the needed speed and grip. And some turns can be done quicker when using the non-gaspedal trick instead of braking, or; this method can be easier to do good than braking, some turns is very tricky to brake perfect, it's very easy to brake to much. The big difference in this two techniques is that it's easier to get high speed out of the turn with the non-brake method.
Compare it to nreal life, when I drive touring I hardly use brakes at all in curvy open landscape, I'm only using gear-shifts, gearbraking and gaspedal, the only thing needed is to have so much power left that I can accelerate out of the turn, that power will give me the needed grip. If you don't have more power to give you are in big danger.

[DC_McGregor]

Chris said, "... that you must complete all of your braking in a straight line...".

That isn't quite true. Trail braking (lighter braking as you turn in) is a well recognized racing technique that also works in SCGT and PU. That allows a slightly later braking point, but you must be precise to take advantage of that. It also allows you to help turn the car into the corner. I frequently use this latter technique, although I am not precise enough to actually brake later.

The "equation" works like this: If you are using 100% of the tires' adhesion for braking, you don't have any left over for cornering. If you ease up on the brakes as you turn in, you can stay within the limits of the tires' adhesion. As you gradually increase your turn-in, you ease off the brakes until you reach the point of max cornering.

Turn out works the same way, except that you are easing on the throttle as you ease up on the cornering force. Racers use the phrase, "rolling on the throttle". I prefer the phrase, "balancing the car on the throttle (or brake)". That's how it feels to me when I get it right.

Chris also said that his recommendation is for real life racing. In that I have to agree. I've spent a lifetime of driving rear engined cars. I learned early on not to brake in a corner in VWs and 356 Porsches. Not only that, I had to keep my foot firmly planted in the throttle to keep the rear end down on the suspension as I went through the corner. In swing axle cars, if you lift in a corner, the rear end comes up and you have positive camber at the rear with a subsequent loss of traction. You also have a higher roll center which adds to the problem. It's called trailing throttle oversteer. Used judiciously, it can help steer the car in online racing. Real life too, but I've only done that when well under the limit. I have never owned a car with enough horsepower to learn about power oversteer.

I'm in 100% agreement with his comments on smoothness.

I'm an advocate of the "Italian" school for real life driving. Arms fully extended. I learned to push on the wheel rather than pull to turn the wheel. If you push with the heel of your left hand for a right hand curve, you'll keep your shoulders firmly planted against the back of the seat. If you pull with your right hand for that right hand curve, you're pulling yourself out of the seat. That will add to tension in your back and will tire you out rapidly and needlessly. This means that you have to keep both hands on the wheel. I have found this technique leads to better control. I freely admit that I'm not so good about applying it for online racing. I pay for it too.

In SCGT, I have also found that too soft a front end requires more time between full throttle and braking. The front end was simply too unstable to begin braking immediately. It required time to settle down before braking in earnest. I corrected that problem by stiffening the front suspension.

[Wazza]

nice stuff guys...

but who needs braking and apexs, when there are rails.. ^_^

j/k 8)~

[McGregor]

I was discussing this problem with another SCGT racer recently.

From my experience, trying to brake too late is the biggest cause of cornering problems you can have in SCGT. Braking a bit early will not hurt your lap times and may just save your bacon.

The most important points are the turn-in point and the apex. If you can locate the proper turn in point properly, it will define your braking point for you. If you brake too late, you'll turn in too late and be slow through the corner. Assuming you don't spin or go off.

Once you have found the approximate turn-in point, check the apex. If your apex is wide, turn in earlier. If your apex tends to cut the curb (assuming you don't want to cut the curb), turn in later. When you have found the "best" turn-in point, it's a simple matter to find the proper braking point. Be sure to pick a landmark to indicate your turn-in point.

A note on tire wear. The Ferrari GTO has a tendency to wear the front tires more than the rear. The result is late race understeer that requires earlier turn in. I have just reduced the front camber from -4.5 to -3.5. That helped reduce the understeer and tire wear problems, but they still exist. If you are having problems with late race understeer and are running -4.5 front camber in the Shelby, try reducing it to around -3.5. Since I don't drive it, I don't know how this works in the Shelby.

Good luck!

Robert

[Wazza]

I guess I have to purchase some new car games and a wheel to understand exactly what ur saying.. in Pu I just drive. All comes so easily.. :)


Also, I play Sega Rally 2 at the arcades... very fun.. and I drive the Lancia Stratos.. the very sideways car. ;)

[lewi]

Also I might add, from life driving experience, in a case of a straight being after any corner, make your exit line as shallow as possible, this means there is less time on the steering and more time going in a straight line which = better top speed @ end of the straight. And as always, smoothness is the key. Smoothness and balance.

[chris]

Another thing that can help in real life and racing sims is to not rev the hell out of the engine if you don't need to.

Look in real life at the Maserati 3200 GT, with 3.2 litre Biturbo V8, 271kW, with 490Nm torque (at 2700rpm).

You will be faster in that car often by making use of the torque, rather than thrashing the hell out of the engine and running always to the rev-limit. It will also be easier to control as well, given that the 3200 GT has very tricky "hair-trigger" throttle response.

But also with that engine, you have to be aware of turbo-lag, and when the turbos do get going, it has phenomenal power and torque (particularly torque). Judicious use of the throttle is well advised.

Another thing to be aware of is weight shifting when accelerating or braking. This can dramatically change the weight distribution of even a car with normally 50:50 weight distribution. It could change to 36:64 or even 64:36 respectively, for instance.

[JeffR]

straight arm steering

IRL (In Real Life), the wheel is setup close enough to the driver to keep the arms bent. The extreme of this is probably Nascar, where the wheel is almost in the driver's chest. F1 drivers have their arms down out of the windstream for the most part. I'm not aware of any class of racing (except drag racing)where drivers have their arms nearly straight, it would be very fatiguing.

apexing

The ideal path through a corner depends on the cars ability to brake, corner, and acclerate. For a low powered car, a near circular arc, at near constant speed is used to maintain speed, since the car doesn't have a lot of acceleration to regain speed. For a high powered car (or motorcycle), the path is more like a hyperbola, where the smallest radius and speed occur in the middle of the corner, with heavy linear deceleration and acceleration before and afterwards, with a slower and tighter turn at the apex.

In Grand Prix Legends, at Kyalami, this hyperbola path is the key to getting a good lap time. Many newer GPL players (including myself) try to maintain too much speed at the apex of corners, especially on a couple of the tighter corners there. Eventually you find that lifting off the throttle (the cars in GPL scrub off speed with lift throttle oversteer), allowing the car to slow down a bit and turn in tighter on corner apexes, you can get back on the throttle sooner, and even though it doesn't seem that you're pushing as hard, your lap times improve. There's a great replay analyzer for GPL that allows you to compare paths (overhead view) and lap times from different runs, like your's and an expert's for example, and then it's pretty clear what path works well. This is why Kyalami is called a technical track, as you just can't push everywhere, you have to learn to ease up at some spots so you can push harder at others.

[chris]

I also can not imagine driving with straight arms. It would be very difficult, and rather tiring. I also imagine controlling the car precisely would be difficult as well.

[hotmatch]

:wave:
Thanks for the great post.
I have read this twice now, and find myself using the tips.
It all good and usefull information.
Good stuff.
[NFBS]Hotmatch

[chris]

Another thing is to not brake too late, leaving yourself with a poor exit angle from a corner.

If you must brake very late to overtake another car, particularly into a slow corner, then at least try and stay slow through the apex and try to slow down the car behind you as well - make that car lose its momentum, then you have a decent chance of keeping your newly gained position, rather than having the car behind simply blast straight back past you on the exit of the corner.

Jeff's comment on trying to get good acceleration out of corners is also a good idea and works well. A bit more cornering speed might gain a little bit of time, but travelling say 10km/hr faster at 290km/hr rather than 280km/hr on a long straight will gain a lot of time.

Now, you might drive different cars in a different fashion as well. A 4wd car might have some more understeer on turning into a corner, so you drive them in a way that makes best use of the greatest 4wd asset - traction when exiting corners. The trick is to go slow into a corner, and aim for the cleanest, easiest line on exit of the corner, allowing you to make greatest use of the 4wd traction.

You might think of 4wd and think drifts, as the current rally drivers do. But remember back to Walter Rohrl in the early 80s. While his rivals would always be driving very sideways, Rohrl, even in a rear-drive rally car would always be driving the car cleanly and straight. He was almost always faster than his rivals, even though not looking as quick. It probably boils down to Jeff's point.

Rohrl would say, and I quote him:

"The car must go forwards, not sideways".

Sometimes a rival would beat him, but with 120% of risk. Some of them took "the big risk" and died in catastrophic accidents.

[AntClio]

In Grand Prix Legends, at Kyalami, this hyperbola path is the key to getting a good lap time. Many newer GPL players (including myself) try to maintain too much speed at the apex of corners, especially on a couple of the tighter corners there. Eventually you find that lifting off the throttle (the cars in GPL scrub off speed with lift throttle oversteer), allowing the car to slow down a bit and turn in tighter on corner apexes, you can get back on the throttle sooner, and even though it doesn't seem that you're pushing as hard, your lap times improve. There's a great replay analyzer for GPL that allows you to compare paths (overhead view) and lap times from different runs, like your's and an expert's for example, and then it's pretty clear what path works well. This is why Kyalami is called a technical track, as you just can't push everywhere, you have to learn to ease up at some spots so you can push harder at others.

This is an interesting post, I assume GPL is a game right? Anyway, Kyalami is right in my home town of Johannesburg, South Africa. I race there often, got me an 83 RX2 Coupe Turbo ( I put the turbo on). I race in Super Cup and we race Kyalami twice a year. I agree with you, it's a very technical track, but I'm going to dissagree with you on the pushing part. If you wanna make up time on Kyalami you need to push. Down the mine shaft is a good place if you got the balls to take the corner at the bottom flat out. I push the crap out of my car round kyalami, and it gives me good times. I brake a good deal later than most of the people I race against and it pays off for me. I get between 1st and 3rd most of the time.

Remember, I'm speaking from IRL experience, so if this is not the way it is in the game then ignore... hehehe

[JeffR]

Note that GPL is modeling 1967 F1 race cars, 400+hp on a 1400lb car (with driver). The cars reached 190+mph on the long straight and can't take any of the turns at Kyalami flat out. With no downforce, traction was an issue with these cars, although they could pull about 1.5g's in a turn, 400hp versus 1400lbs is a lot of power to weight ratio.

need to pushWhat I meant was that you have to ease off the throttle while keeping the car turning at maximum force to reduce the speed and turning radius during the first half of a corner, so you can get on the throttle sooner for the corner exit.

Regarding braking points in games, I find it easiest to just run into the car in front of mine and let that car do the braking for me. Using other cars as berms helps the cornering as well.

[JeffR]

Here's a map of the racing line for Willow Springs, note the difference on the higher speed corners for low versus high powered cars. The low powered cars take the shortest route, while the high powered cars take the standard racing line.

http://jeffareid.net/real/willowwidetrack.gif