It's ALIVE!!!!

[NFSracer]

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!:AAAHHH: My sisters car is alive! She has a Saturn, not sure which model but it's a 92 and its got seat belts that slid back, sorta like power seat belts you could say... Well there going baserk. They keep going zip zap zop zing zang zob zok zam zaz (ran out of crazy words that start with Z lol) up and down there tracks. And here power windows were going nuts to. They kept going up and down to. Whats going on? Does the car have a life of it's own??

[chris]

Probably the electronic systems controlling them have failed..

Am I correct in saying that Saturn was supposed to be a Lexus rival, that has failed miserably?

[Commander]

Sounds like Maximum Overdrive to me! ^_^

No, chris, Saturn was never meant to really rival anything. It was made to be primarily a semi-economy model with good quality parts, which is exactly what it is.

[chris]

I was just wondering, because I'd heard some pretty horrific reports about the Saturn cars.. Some of the reports are enough to scare anyone away from that brand of car forever..

Some of the reports, well, I could definately say that they are the most scathing I ever read. And the author of one of the articles, I know, and he is very fair, and unbiased (been in the journalist game for more than 45 years now, so he's seen and tested just about everything, from Renault 8, to Enzo Ferrari, and Mclaren F1 and Maybach 57/62, even.).

[Commander]

Like what? The only reports I have ever heard were fairly good ones; for an econo car anyway. When Saturn first begun, they borrowed a bunch of GM parts to test the cars. Soon afterward, GM parts became a staple, and well you know the rest. They are by no means awesome, but I'd rather spend 19,000 on a Saturn than say a Civic or similar class car. Of course, the look of the Saturn is a bit deceiveing, and it is possible that critics get in the car expecting far more than what it was intended to deliver.

[Justin Martin]

I think you may have it confused with something else Chris. Saturn was started by GM in the late '80s (though didn't get into production until the early '90s) partially as an experiment in sales. Basically, you buy a Saturn like you would buy groceries. There are no gimicks, no haggeling, no dealer markups, you pay the list price GM sets, which is about what you would pay for any other compact.

They're actually pretty decently cars, they're alot like a Corolla, compeletly bland, adequate performance, lots of features and room for the money. They're not performance cars, they're not luxury cars, they're cars for people who don't like to think about cars.

I've driven them, know quite a few people who own them, (Josh has one) they're very reliable, decent transportation. I wouldn't buy one because they're not what I look for in a car, but anyone who completely slams them is approching the car with a bias or is expecting something completely different.


NFSRacer, there's probably a power accesories module somewhere that has failed. That would be my guess since everything is acting weird.

That's one of my pet peeves about new cars, everything is computer controlled. When I turn the headlights on in my truck or Celica, those electrons are flowing directly from the swtich to the light. On the Cirrus my mom had, when you turned the lights on the switch told the computer to turn the lights on. Which means that to do anything to the car, you needed a $3000 diagnostics tool from Chrysler. They didn't do a single thing by going to such a system except perhaps loose a few pounds, and it adds immensely to the complexity of the electrical system, and when the parts get old and fail, they're much, much more expensive to fix.

On the plus side, the really cool thing was playing around with the diagnostics tool, you could do some pretty funky stuff. The guage cluster on the Cirrus was also computer controlled, and during the diagnostics check it would max out the speedometer and tachometer. I always wanted to get a picture of that, show it to mom and make her think I had driven her car at 150mph. :D

[VQ]

yeah the current one have undentable plastic panels so they are also known for ruggudness aren't they? And they started by themsleves then GM took them over.

[chris]

It was the Saturn Ion that was copping the criticism. Pretty nasty criticism, too, it was. I don't know much about the car, itself, but the guy who wrote it is very fair, honest, and unbiased (one of the few motoring journos that is).

Too bad that he is nearing retirement age, almost. Some of the cars he has tested I haven't even heard of, since they were built before I was born, even. He's an encyclopedia of information.. And he's still very enthusiastic, about writing about cars. Petrol is in his blood.. :)

[Commander]

I don't know much about the Ion other than that is is just another bubble car made for tight-budgeted people. I imagine it would be good for a starter car, or for a student who needs reliable transportation. It looks rather bland, but then again, it is supposed to be boring. Perhaps the critic was just expecting more from this new release, and was disheartened when he discovered the Ion is just like the other models.

[Justin Martin]

VQ, no, Saturn was started by GM.

Chris, just who is this journalist? I mean, I don't like them, (boring & ugly) and I wouldn't claim a Saturn is a fantastically great car, (nothing would be for $15,000 USD) and I wouldn't ever consider buying one, but if he completely dumped on them then he's obviously pretty biased. I've seen the Ion, it's not a bad car, not really any worse than any of the Japaneese cars in the same price range.

I have a cousin who owns a '95 SC2, it's been very reliable transportation for over six years for her. It's not a sports car, it's not a luxury car, it's simply reliable transportation, just like a Corolla or anything else in that price range.

[blackice111288]

id rather waste money on a civic than a piece of crap saturn. lets see, civics look better, are faster, more powerful, and generally cooler than saturns.

chrysler power controll thing can get pretty jacked up to. my dad's got a 95 caravan and the lights are allt screwed up. to turn the middle roof ilght on, you flick on the switch on the dash(the lats light turns on) and thn you alternat presing the push lights by tha windsheild and you can turn on diferant lghts in tha inside. and the clok on the stereo dont work and when you hit a bump the car goes "ding" like the sound that tells you if you need more fuel or if a door aint closed all the way. he he he he he he

[Commander]

Justin, like VQ, I too am fairly certain that Saturn was started on it's own in the beginning, and only had GM backing them up with loaner parts to do the tests. I'd like to know for sure though.

[Justin Martin]

Quote from Comeback: The fall and rise of the American automobile industry

"The article's awe-struck tone seems fully justified. In January 1985, Smith had created a furor by announcing GM's secret Saturn project would become a full-fledged car-making enterprise, and prove that an American company could "leap-frog" Japaneese small cars. Saturn would have its own massive high-tech factory and it's own dealerships. Governors from seven states went on the Phil Donahue Show to make their case to land the factory. The "Saturnalia" madness, as the press dubbed it, didn't subside until July, when GM declared the tiny community of Spring Hill, Tennesee, the winner."

Incidentally, GM spent $3.5 billion creating Saturn. It was Roger Smiths idea, or he took credit for it anyway, and championed it when more sensible people were against it. :rolleyes:

Comeback is an excellent book, it's written by two Pulitzer Prize winners. It's amazing some of the stupid things that were going on in the '80s, expecially in the board rooms. Some ideas, like Roger Smith's "dark factories" (ie, all work done by robots so no need for lights) would be almost comical if they hadn't cost so much money and been so pitiful of failures. Saturn itself is only now becoming profitable after ten years, GM has probably spent close to five billion between creating Saturn and absorbing it's early losses. If they'd spent that same money improving exsisting products, they probably never would have lost so much market share from the mid '80s to the mid '90s.

[VQ]

so GM did create it?

[Commander]

Well, no, that's the article I was likely after, actually. GM more or less adopted Saturn as opposed to pioneering it. I sort of get the feeling that GM waited on the sidelines watching the Saturn delvelopment before stepping in. Unlike most GM projects, Saturn was run on the backburner, and only after signs of success did GM finally show it's mug.

[Justin Martin]

So you're saying that Saturn started as a completely independant company, like Vector or something, then was bought by GM?

Or are you saying it was a project being developed, perhaps as a study or something, by employees of GM, and only when GM management thought it could be successful they brought it to market?

[Commander]

More of the second statement. I think Saturn was conceived by someone independant and was thereafter babysat by GM during the development stages. After a successful product was unveiled, GM found it worthwhile to fully adopt the project as a GM line. That's my understaning of it all anyway. My girlfriend used to work for Saturn, so i shoud ask her.

[blackice111288]

is vector its own company or what?

[Commander]

I know it was in the early 90's, but I am not sure now. It was based in California, if I am not mistaken, and from what I have heard GM stepped in. I still don't think it is an official "GM" line though, like say "pontiac" or "buick" is.