Would Firebirds beat Mustangs?

[Mullin]

I believe Firebirds would stomp Mustangs into the ground at anytime. Period.

[Justin Martin]

As much as I prefer GM products over Fords, I have to say that inflamatory comments like that aren't going to win you any friends here. Comments like those are likely to start a flame war, and if that is what you are after, we do not hesitate to censor trolls. You are warned, as is anyone else who posts a imflamatory response.

Besides, it's obviously not accurate. Everything else being equal, a 2002 Mustang Cobra is a bit faster than a 2002 Firebird WS6, as was the last Cobra R. That's two stock Mustangs that will top a stock Firebird, albeit at higher prices. Having said that, even slight driver skill differences can easily tip the win either way, the cars are just too close to say "a Firebird will always stomp a Mustang."

[Commander]

It also really depends on year and engine. Naturally, a 455 c.i.d. in a 1969 Firebird would cream a 302 in a 1967 Mustang. Conversely, a 1970 429 Boss Mustang would easily crush a 1984 Four-banger Firebird.

Year for year, it has all been up and down. In the 60's, it was dang close, but I think mostly Camaro/Firebird was the more potent car. In the 70's, the F-bodies were quicker than the mustangs, then in the 80's, mostly Mustangs were quicker than Camaro/Firebird until about 1988. A stock Camaro/Firebird has pretty much held the title from then until now (vs stock Mustang), but then again, there is no Firebird anymore, so Mustang takes back the trophy after 2002.

I personally like Firebirds better, but this is just my opinion and I happen to like that body style. Plus, the 350 under the hood makes more sense in my mind. -^

[VQ]

Well the firebirs will be back to america in the form of a rebadged Monaro with a LS1 engine and about 260KW. But Mustangs have slightly more technology I mean quad cams!! the ls1 only has single and that isn't even overhead.b not that the enigne is bad.

[Commander]

The "overhead" and "dual" camshaft spiel is a gaff in its purest form. The difference in power such configurations make is almost undetectable, but it sells well because it is made out to be "superior". Now, 4 valves per cylinder is another story! The factory Rustang or Camaro/Firebird engine doesn't have that feature, but that isn't the point. Any cyl head with 4 valves will naturally flow more air, which in turn equals more power. How the camshaft is actuated, or where it is situated in the engine is not important from a performance standpoint.

[VQ]

but it does make it more effecient to use don't it? ok thanks for correcting me.

[Commander]

Not really. At a very technical level, it probably takes less energy to move the overhead cam, with less parts to cause friction, but the amount of energy saved is extremely minute. In a pushrod engine, you have friction between the cam lobe and the lifter, then between the lifter and the pushrod, between the pushrod and the rocker arm, and then finally between the rocker arm and the valve stem. It sounds like a lot of place to rub and cause friction, but the amount is so small it barely makes a difference in normal applications. All out race engines with roller lifters and rocker illiminate this friction quite well, but gains seen are usually marginal, perhaps 10-15 HP at the wheels.

The overhead cams have less moving parts to rub each other, and therefore gives a similar result as the rollers described above. Very small difference.

[FDA]

Originally posted by IH8COPS
Having said that, even slight driver skill differences can easily tip the win either way, the cars are just too close to say "a Firebird will always stomp a Mustang."

Avout 30 years ago I ran my Chevy van in an autocross, beating several Z/28's and a Boss 302, so I'd second that statement :) (also had a Boss 302 put itself in the California iceplant trying to keep up with my 76 Datsun pickup a few years later). The driver does make a bit of difference. Course, that's nothing: I heard about Bob Bondurant outrunning a bunch of his students at Sears Point -- they were in Formula Fords and he was driving a rental sedan...

Sorry about the bragging; I know I'm obnoxious but I just love those stories :D (Had a few outrunning Porsches in Calif 20 years ago too.) Few things more fun in your unrepentant youth than seeing drivers of much faster cars getting sideways trying to keep up.

[Justin Martin]

Hehe, funny stories FDA :D

[Kemperz]

Personally I like Camaro's over both cars, but I like the Firebird more then mustangs, but I still give the mustangs props. I own an 89 Camaro that has a pretty much stock 350, while I build up my 406 sbc, well I was running ricers and crappier V8's and was rocking them, but I had my friend in his mustang saleen which he has done up to the tits, and I mean he blew me away so bad I thought I was in reverse. So I still give mustangs props, but it all depends on years, engines, drivers, trannies, way to many things to take into account to really say which is totally better.

[blackice111288]

I KNOW that a '00 Nissan Skyline GTR Spec-V with an HKS Twin Turbo upgrade and a GT spec inter-cooler would dust all of those crappy domestic sport compacts. I know plenty of tricked out civic si's that would be a match for those cars.
DONT HATE ON IMPORTS(im not a Fast and the Furious junkie,i know my stuff):007:

[Justin Martin]

And if I took a Pro Stock Camaro, i'd blow right past your Skyline. ;) You really can't compare modded cars, I mean, yeah, if you take a Civic and spend $30,000 modifying it, it better be faster than a stock or slightly modded Mustang or Camaro, but then you've just spent $50,000 to beat a $25,000 car. Don't get me started on Skylines, they're basically not available in the US except for from one grey market importer who wants something like $90,000 for one. It's a fantastic car, but it's in a completely different league than a Camaro. And I don't see anyone here who is "hating on imports" either.

What I dislike more than anything is people who do nothing but diss each other's cars. I see import people calling muscle cars "dinosaurs" and muscle car people calling imports "weedwackers" when in reality, both types are capable of far greater speeds than you would ever need in any circumstance except professional drag racing. We're all car guys, why don't we just get along instead of calling each other names. Getting along doesn't mean muscle car guys have to drive Civics or import guys have to drive Camaros, but it would follow the old rule of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Personally, i'm not wild about the import drag racing crowd. For one, I don't particulary care about drag racing, i'm only interested in racing that turns left and right. ;) I also find most of the body kits to be hideous, and the aftermarket exhaust systems sound awfull. And I generally could care less about most of the cars, such a Civics. Don't get me wrong, i'm not anti-import, I drive a Chevrolet truck and a Celica GTS, but i'm more of a sports car person, not a drag race person. I'll take a Porsche Boxster S with it's tastefully restrained styling and glorious flat-six exhaust note over anything mentioned here.

[VQ]

like U said the exasut from the imports are a bit loud and wannabe (i just won't say that to the owners faces cos there usally tuff) but I don't even think they m,ake more power then a more restricted exaust or does it? Some correct me!!!!

[Commander]

A good exhaust will definately help make more power. There is such thing as overkill though, well sorta... A 3 inch exhaust on a 4 banger won't hurt it or anything, but it just isn't necessary because the engine will only flow enough gasses to fill a small tube anyway, like 1 1/2 inch-ish. I hope that makes sense, er.

[bogs]

Originally posted by blackice111288
I KNOW that a '00 Nissan Skyline GTR Spec-V with an HKS Twin Turbo upgrade and a GT spec inter-cooler would dust all of those crappy domestic sport compacts. I know plenty of tricked out civic si's that would be a match for those cars.
DONT HATE ON IMPORTS(im not a Fast and the Furious junkie,i know my stuff):007:

Now now , if you want a forum that hates on imports , your in the wrong place . I am not an import fan , but frankly I'm also not a fan of most new cars .

Here is an example of a forum that hates on imports :D

http://www.mustangworld.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22230

My own favorite line in the whole thread is this one :

The car also has heavy 19-inch wheels, cut springs and one of the most aggressive body kits we've ever seen. We find three kittens and a squirrel cowering in fear inside one of the massive front air intakes.

[FDA]

Originally posted by Commander
A good exhaust will definately help make more power. There is such thing as overkill though, well sorta... A 3 inch exhaust on a 4 banger won't hurt it or anything, but it just isn't necessary because the engine will only flow enough gasses to fill a small tube anyway, like 1 1/2 inch-ish. I hope that makes sense, er.

Too large an exhaust (header esp.) will definitely hurt performance. In the olden days, say until the 60's, the idea in cars was mostly dump the exhaust out -- period, maybe a little attention to the headers. Then they started paying attention to the info from the motorcycle world, where exhaust tuning was a more important part of performance. This was recognised there partly because the engines were small and very high output for the day, and partly because the 4-stroke motorcycle folks looked at the 2-stroke mc folks and saw how critical it was there. Basically, with more radical tuning, there's a lot of overlap in intake and exhaust ports being open, and the fresh air-fuel mix tends to continue on out the open exhaust port, wasting potential power.

One of the interesting things that's learned from 2-strokes is that it's not just a certain amount of exhaust backpressure you want (to keep the fresh air-fuel mix from escaping right out the open exhaust port), but sonic waves, which bounce back when there is a radical change in exhaust pipe size. This is why 2-strokes use exapnsion chamber exhausts, with those radical changes from header to fat pipe, followed by a narrow bleed pipe at the rear.

Another thing that the car crowd learned from the motorcycle guys -- another that started with 2-strokes' weird needs -- is that a spark is not just a spark. That is, it used to be thought that all the juice you needed to supply to the plug was enough to get most any spark. The 2-stroke tuners found that essentially, the more juice the better. They found this first because they were igniting an air-fuel mix that was also full of lubricating oil, which is tough. They also found, because of the heat that a (then air-cooled) 2-stroke puts out, a cool engine makes more power, as long as it's warm enough to run properly. This also eventually migrated over to the car guys sometime later. It's not that the 2-stroke motorcycle guys were so much smarter (altho there were some pretty smart folks in that fold) but that the engines they were working with had such special characteristics that they had to figure this stuff out.

[blackice111288]

My bust yall. I wasnt sayin that yall were hating on imports, i was just saying in general to people that visit this site

[blackice111288]

where do i go on EA Racing Online to race? Some One tell me where to go/click on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:confused: :007:

[Commander]

FDA, you are 100% correct. Once you start meddling around with the valvetrain and the cam profile, other considerations will need to be made at the exhaust side (and intake side, for that matter). I won't go into it as you pretty much covered it. With a factory Civic (or similar car), however, optimum performance would be seen with no backpressure whatsoever. This would also hold true to a 350 V8 with a mild cam, like .40 lift and 230-250 duration, somthing like that. But a big cam, with .50 inch lift and long duration would cause unnecessary venting of the combustion chamber on the intake stroke without the right exhaust to hold it back. Very good point to bring up!

You mention the sonic resonances too. That is a real science, I am surprised you are familiar with it. A lot of studies are being conducted concerning this subject, and I find it rather fascinating! I don't really know a lot about the theory behind it, but I can see where it makes sense in that sound is actually moving air.

[FDA]

Originally posted by Commander


You mention the sonic resonances too. That is a real science, I am surprised you are familiar with it. A lot of studies are being conducted concerning this subject, and I find it rather fascinating! I don't really know a lot about the theory behind it, but I can see where it makes sense in that sound is actually moving air.

Familiar isn't quite the right word. :) I used to race 2-stroke motorcycles and also rode them on the street (had a Kawasaki H1 500 triple when they first came out) and thought about getting into more tuning. Basic tuning (building a motor, reading sparkplugs and mixtures and such) I was pretty good with, but I quickly saw I was far out of my depth when it came to any thought of designing my own 2-stroke exhausts. The math involved in getting the sonic waves right as they bounce back and forth the length of an exhaust system is bizarrely complicated. Luckily there were far better people out there doing it already, so I could stick to reading plugs and riding.

As you mention, this isn't really as necessary with mild cams, but more radical cams have both intake and exhaust open at the same time for quite a while, which gets to be somewhat like the situation with a classic 2-stroke, where the valve timing is handled by how high up on the cylinder walls the ports go -- the piston blocks them and unblocks them, so there's a lot of time that both transfer ports and exhaust ports are both open (in a 2-stroke, for the curious, the intake chanrge is drawn into the crankcase, where it gets compressed and flees up the transfer ports into the combustion chamber. Nowadays, there are also auxilary valving systems they use to help control the exhaust timing, as there were on some older 2-strokes for intake timing, but the basic 2-stroke valving is like a 4-stroke with a really radical cam.

[Commander]

It's called piston ported induction. Yeah, the intake charge gets sucked into the crankcase when the piston moves up, then as it moves down, the gasses get squished out of the crankcase, through a port in the side of the block, and into the combustion chamber. Extremely inefficient, and with all the emmisions/smog laws nowadays, it's either clean up the 2 strokes or turf 'em. Lawnboy has now begun full production of their 4 stroke, which is something I never thought I'd see. I am a big 4 stroke fan myself, but man, nothing beats the smell of 2-stroke exhaust! :AAAHHH:

[FDA]

Originally posted by Commander
I am a big 4 stroke fan myself, but man, nothing beats the smell of 2-stroke exhaust! :AAAHHH:

We always used Castrol's castor bean oil (US$4 a quart in 1970!) and the smell of that burning when I got to the track always got my adrenalin going. :) It may have been "inefficient", but it was good for one hell of a lot more power than the same size 4-stroke could ever pull.

[Commander]

Heheh, you know what I mean then, the smell is definately a gearhead's perfume. I like 2-strokes for their high-end power band; lots of HP at high RPM (great for the track). I like 4 strokes though because of the torque. I need torque as I ride primarily in forestry reserves with steep inclines and very rocky terrain. Not a good place for high speed, lol, although a 6 pack can make you forget that rule, and your bike becomes a mechanized bucking bronco which is rather hard on the ass! ^_^

[VQ]

Well my Dad uses a .35 aero engine in his hovercraft and they do smell nice the methonol that is as long as I'm at a distance. it is very loud in comparison to our old petrol Flymo which we replaced with a new 4 stroke which isn't that loud. And that site u said is really funny i reckon more import owners should do that LOL ^_^ ^_^

[Commander]

WOw, you actually had a Flymo? Those are probably the rarest thing I have ever come across in my travels. Fun as hell, I kinda like 'em. The electric ones were crap; Noma motors and all, but the gassies with the Tecumseh was a hoot! (I think some also used a Wisconsin Robin)

[FDA]

Originally posted by Commander
Heheh, you know what I mean then, the smell is definately a gearhead's perfume. I like 2-strokes for their high-end power band; lots of HP at high RPM (great for the track). I like 4 strokes though because of the torque. I need torque as I ride primarily in forestry reserves with steep inclines and very rocky terrain. Not a good place for high speed, lol, although a 6 pack can make you forget that rule, and your bike becomes a mechanized bucking bronco which is rather hard on the ass! ^_^

When I got my Kawasaki, the break-in period was 300 miles at under 6,000 rpm. As I'd climbed off a 100cc twin, it was already the most powerful bike I'd ridden. Imagine, if you will, my surprise to learn after breaking it in, that the power band STARTED at 6,000. That first trip up past 6 was sobering. They later toned the 500 down when they came out with the 750 and later the Z-1. You want narrow 2-stroke powerband tho? The later Yamaha 4 cyl 250's in the late 60's had a powerband between 15,250 and 16,000, and a 14-speed gearbox to deal with it... and they wobbled. ( I later had a BSA 441 Victor, which made power so low down the rpm range you could practically count the rpms.)

[mrbobhcrhs]

All I know is my uncle has taken his 67 gt 500 and raped cars like porches and firebirds

[Commander]

Well duh, it's a GT 500, 'nuff said. I could say the same thing about a Firehawk, it would "rape" the GT 500 even, but that isn't a common production model. :rolleyes:

[Justin Martin]

I'll just go back to what I (and FDA) pointed out earlier, saying "i've beaten (insert random high performance car here) in my (insert random high performance car here)" is absolutly pointless. It tells you absolutly nothing about either car's performance, expecially if we're talking about street racing or poorly organized drag racing events, (which you obviously are, if your uncle was racing Porsches in a Mustang) where drivers of vast skill differences meet.

It's really all about driver skill, put John Force in my Celica, and me in, say, a Viper, and he'll blow past me every time. But put me in my Celica, and put my mom in the Viper, and i'll probably blow past her every time. And in street racing and country drag strip races, you see skill levels that vast lined up against each other.

And saying "i've beaten a Porsche" doesn't mean much anyway. There are hundreds of different Porsche models that represent a staggeringly vast range of performance, from cars like early 356's and 914's that are slower than any modern econo box, to cars like the 911 GT2 and Dauer 962 which would, given equal drivers, blow past a GT500. It's exactly like saying, i've beaten a Chevy in my GT500, well, did you beat a Chevette or a Corvette? Big difference.

[FDA]

Originally posted by IH8COPS
I'll just go back to what I (and FDA) pointed out earlier, saying "i've beaten (insert random high performance car here) in my (insert random high performance car here)" is absolutly pointless. It tells you absolutly nothing about either car's performance, expecially if we're talking about street racing or poorly organized drag racing events, (which you obviously are, if your uncle was racing Porsches in a Mustang) where drivers of vast skill differences meet.



Not to mention the road; You take a Mustang GT500, and give me, say, a 125cc Aprillia, and head over to Pea Pond Road in Westchester County, NY. There's just no way to use the power and speed of the faster machine, regardless of driver skill. Plus, on the street, the crazier person wins, given roughly equal machine and skill. When I went back to those roads around Westchester and saw how I'd been tearing around 70-90 mph blind corners with stone walls and trees 3 feet from the road, not to mention the (blind) driveways opening onto the road, I realised how lucky (and stupid) I'd been driving like I did.

[mrbobhcrhs]

true, that is just a real fun car to ride in

[Radical-Al]

Mullin, I bet a Mustang will STOMP a Firebird on how many years it has been made, ;)

[Commander]

I don't quite understand what you mean Al, could you be more specific? (I'm not bugging you, I just really honestly don't understand) :confused:

[Justin Martin]

It's a joke Teej, the Mustang has been made for a longer period of time than the f-bodies, so it does "stomp" the f-bodies in that category. ;) 'Course, it bears pointing out the Beetle has been in production longer than anything else, and I don't think you'll find many cars that a stock Beetle will "stomp" in a drag race. :p

[Commander]

Ah ah ah ok I see now. The wording just threw me off. 747 on me I guess, heh. -^

[bogs]

Originally posted by IH8COPS
..... and I don't think you'll find many cars that a stock Beetle will "stomp" in a drag race. :p

Oh contraire mon fraire ( like I know how to spell in french , I have enough trouble in english for pities sakes ) .

Actually , Justin , I can think of a whole lot of cars that a stock beetle could take in a drag race . The downside to that is that of course , they are all sitting in bone yards ........

[Justin Martin]

^_^

You got me on that one, bogs. :monkey:

[bogs]

I thought further upon this , and realized that *maybe* cars in the boneyard wasn't exactly fair [ mostly to the cars in the boneyard] . However , with great joy I realized there *is* another stock car that beetles could beat , although I feel it might be a close thing depending on the drivers skills , and here it is :

http://www.cowboy-frames.com/cars/bosscar_small.jpg

[FDA]

Boneyards? I must disagree; we've got several Citroen 2CV's running around here, and I guarantee a decent bug will crush them in the 1/4 mile. (We also seem to have about half of the entire MGB production run residing here -- maybe it's a retirement mecca for them.)

[Justin Martin]

Oh yeah, a Beetle will take on a 2CV any day. Same for the Renault Dauphine, several of which I have the (mis)fortune of being aquainted with. ^_^ Note that I said "you won't find many cars", I was intentionally leaving room in for the 2CV's, Dauphines and Meshershmits of the world.

[Commander]

I'd also bet a Beetle could squash my friend's Ford Festiva! ^_^

[VQ]

Well a Ford Ka would be beaten by a beetle!! And my Dad's diseal Passat would be beaten by a a 70's Beetle or one of the ones from Brazil that are still being made.

[bogs]

Actually kinda interesting how Fords Festiva measures up to a bug . Lets go to the specifications:

Ford Festiva --
[ Engines Size liters/cu. in.-- ohc I4 1.3 / 81 c.i. ]
[ Horsepower : 63 ] [ Torque : 73 ]
---------------------------------
EPA city/hgwy : 5-speed manual: 35/42 , 3-speed automatic: 31/33
______________________

VW Beetle --
[ Beetle Stock Engine Specs 1974 -- 1600 motor = 1584 cc. ]
[ Horsepower : 50 ] [ Torque : not listed ] [mileage not listed ]


I dunno , I think the 3 cyl. Festiva might actually take a 4 cyl. bug . hmmmm. I think we need a racerplanet drag strip .......




^_^

[Justin Martin]

Ahh, but I think a Beetle weighs less than a Festiva. And if I recall correctly, weren't Beetles geared fairly low?

[blackice111288]

if were discussing old school cars now, then lets bring out the 1988 Honda CR-X Si. it ran some where between 16-16.8 in the 1/4 mi. im not sure on the exact specs. it ran on the inline 4 cyl. d16a6 that made a measly 108 hp and redlined @ 6000 rpm. But these days, people that race CRXs (me in a couple of years, cause im 14:D ) get a engine B16A swap from the CRX SIR from Japan. That engine makes 160 hp!

[blackice111288]

it is also possible to use the 2nd gen. Integra Type R engine the B16A1 that produces 180 hp stock. that would make the lightweight CR-X(1500 lbs) a track assasin!But im getting the B16a DOHC Vtec engine. now, add a SFP turbocharger and intercooler,SFP turbo manifolds,GReddy turbo timer, Skunk2 stage 3 cams, Skunk2 pistons, piston rings and forged cylinders, Mugen aftermarket reprogrammed ep3 ECU, Edlebrock 70mm throttle body, edlebroc intake, headers, intake manifold,AEM tru power pulleys,AEM cam gears,MSD ignition, K&N filters, DC exhaust and twin pipe canister muffler, B&M short throw shifter, clutch masters stage 3 clutch system, OBX R fuel rails, white RSRacing 16"RS-126,
candy orange paint, mugen air dam, side skirts, and rear bumper, Arospeed carbon ST 10" tall wing, 10" BBS cross drilled brake disks and calipers up front, stock drum brakes in the rear painted orange,PS2 in place of stereo, 5.7" LCD screen on the dash two sparco racing seats in front and two in back, or a back bench from a 1988 civic lx sedan or si hatch back. I guess i better start savin my pennies now!!:D

[bogs]

Originally posted by IH8COPS
Ahh, but I think a Beetle weighs less than a Festiva. And if I recall correctly, weren't Beetles geared fairly low?

Actually , I'm not sure which weighs more Justin , I'd be suprised if a festiva weighs the more of the two . Its physically much smaller than a bug , although if the bugs geared a lot lower it certainly would get through the quarter faster .

Anyone know for sure ?

[Justin Martin]

Well, I did a search on google, most of the places I found said around 1800 pounds. I don't recall what a Festiva was, but I doubt it was much lighter than that, since it had to meet modern safety and emissions regs, plus even the first gen Festivas were fancier than Beetles.

But i'm definelty not a VW expert, so...

[Commander]

I can pick up either end of the Festiva. It is light, indeed, but I don't know about a bug, I've never tried lifting one. I would guess, however, that the bug is geared lower just to compensate for the crappy horsepower. So on flat ground, it would probably get up to speed faster, and maybe cross the 1/4 before the Festiva, but I think the Festiva would reach a higher speed. Jay gets his up to about 135 Km/h before it gives up. Beetle? Not sure. :confused:

[Cheyenne]

Beetles, uh-oh, once a favorite subject of mine.

While I was in high school my brother and I owned quite a succession of them - okay, he owned them, I was under 18, but that was our understanding. Had quite a few nice ones, too.

To possibly help the debate along, it all depends on what year/model beetle you're talking about. They went through a lot of changes.

Early models had as little as 36 horsepower and weighted around 1under 1700 pounds. Throughout the 60s they weight about 1760-1820 pounds. In 1971 they tipped the scales at around 2000 and had about 60 horsepower. The super beetles (Macpherson strut front suspension) were even heavier. They had a more aerodynamic shape, but because of the soft front spring rates and the fact they needed to still accomodate fuel and cargo weights they tended to drive around normally with their noses high, exposing the floorpan to the air, and therefore had very bad aero which made their top speed lower than it should have been. The 1973 1/2 Super Beetles received a curved windshield which added some serioues weight. In 1974 all models received shock absorbing bumpers which added even mroe, bringing the total to nearly 2300 pounds (and having reduced horsepower due to smog control devices!)

I had a beauitful, totally stock (well, for a while), 1973 standard beetle with a '71 spec engine, 60 horse was the rating, I suspect that was a bit optimistic, maybe 58-59 might be more accurate. I know it would do about 88mph/140kph on the flat.

[Roger]

VW beetles well i have had a few restored some. your horsepower stats are way off. should be 1100cc=36hp 1200cc=40hp 1500(1493)=53hp 1600(1584)66hp with duel port heads. also 1600s have oversize(1641cc) and 1678cc don't use it bad gas milage.

1500cc have a top speed of 82mph+ or about 130kph. 1600cc with late model gears that superbug gears 71-74 will do over 95mph:D

I have a 1969 vw bug 1500cc stock it get to 86mph no problem and my other project headache is a 1969 Karmann Ghia with some mods 1600cc duel port heads with duel delorto carbs 36s and superbug transmission. the hp is unknown but but i guess its about 85hp maybe more top speed is hummm well oil light as the the speedo only goes to 90mph+about 150kph my guess is about 105mph+ is top speed i have had it parked for the last 2 years as the wireing is so messed up it's just a pain in the ass to drive everyday and i give up working on it. fun car though quite fast even with the low top speed. usually people give up racing with me after i go over 90mph^_^

RogerSE

[bogs]

Originally posted by Roger
VW beetles well i have had a few restored some. your horsepower stats are way off. should be 1100cc=36hp 1200cc=40hp 1500(1493)=53hp 1600(1584)66hp with duel port heads. ....

Well , I sure dont see the hp stats as being " way " off , since the stats I listed are for the 1600 ( 1584 ) bone stock motor , not one with duel port heads . However , for the sake of fending off a serious argument ( considering my knowledge of bugs is less than my knowledge of quantum physics , which is to say none ) lets say that bugs and festivas' are roughly equal in power . I'd still have to give the weight advantage to the festeringiva < not a mispelling > . Like Teej , I ( and most of my friends ) at one point lifted ( or tried to ) the fronts and backs of many cars . Well , not Caddy's or anything that size , but amoung our minor competitions we lifted bugs , festeringivas , yugos , mgs , fiat spyders , etc . [ the stuff some guys will do to have fun and prematurely try to end the usefullness of their backs...!]

festeroters were < or , at least , as far as I remember > easier to heave than bugs were . Its my belief that the teeny engine might have had a lot to do with it , coupled with the micromachine style trannies they had . The tires on one probably come in at half the weight of a bugs ( we used to hurl them like discus' ) and could probably work on most reasonably sized go-karts . I dont recall them being all that fancy , all the ones I've seen around here make yugos' look like luxo cars ^_^ and remind me of nothing more than a resonating can shaped like a box. I also remember that even at 18 I couldn't fit into one ( behind the wheel , at any rate ) , but thats about it for the ol memory and I pushed it to get that much . I have no doubt that stock in an 1/8th mile race ( which is what most do with teeny cars like these round here ) that a bug would have no problems shooting it down , but at some point I'm pretty sure you'd find it leveling out , say at the 1/4 or 1/2 mile point .

Now , in modified racing , I'd have to give it to the fester , not of any preference for one but more out of the lack of any weight and even then the ability to reduce that . the engine bays could hold a bit more motor ( unless you go throwing a v-8 into the bug ) I'd have to stick with the fester .

As for the model beetles I was using for comparison , my stats came from a 74 model , since it was the closest to the years that festers came out . Even then , though , theres about a 10+ year gap between the two , which is really too bad . I didn't count the current bugs in the mix , since they aren't really , um , buggy enough , I guess .

Btw , I actually like the ghias' , which remind me somewhat of really old american steel ( most notably the stude and merc , depending on the way its dressed out ) I always wanted to get one just to weld a full frame on it and convert it to a front engined monster . BOOOOYAAAAHHH :eek:

[VQ]

Well the new ones with the Audi tt's/Golf's/A3 etc turbo engine would beat a fair amount of cars!! Just because the car is a bit, ar feminine doesn't mean it can't power!!
And I saw a 356 idle and off and it looks tiny!!! Did U know that Herbie (the love bug) had the 356 engine in it.

[VQ]

Well I know this beetle would beat ne thing this side of a V8 Supercar!!! http://www.fullboost.com.au/racing/dragmeets/2002/jamboree2002/jamboree_02_313b.jpg That looks mean!!

[Roger]

hey bogs duel port heads are stock for a 74 only single port heads were only in 70-mid71. ya the bugs are heavy 1 person can't pickup 1 end forsure, but you can move then around by bouncing and sliding easy enough. the speed shop can give you as much hp as you wan't just money^_^ I have seen 1 450hp tuning way over 7000rpm in a street car the guy spent over $9000 on that crazy. lots of after market racing parts the VWs. Bad idea for street car though not worth the cost the hp has to get to the ground hard to do with stock tires^_^ but some people are stupid.

V8 in a bug bin done but not so good for the handling. if i was gonna do a fast bug now or ghia i'd put in a motor from a 912 Porsche tranny fits in bugs also.

912 is the way to go for bang for the money if you can find one.

[blackice111288]

you totally ignored my post! A stock 1988-91 Honda CR-X Si would smoke a Beetle in the 1/4 mile

[Commander]

That is not relevent to the topic. We are discussing crappy cars that a Beetle can smoke. I mean, my camper van will smoke a Beetle, but that isn't what we are talking about!

[blackice111288]

do yo think a beetle could smoke one of the 1st gen. civics? you know the ones im talking about, right? the real small ones with the 2cyl. engine that date back to the mid 70's. i would certainly hope the beetle could beatle that crap. i bet the mid 70's civic would take a ford aspire.:D he he:007:

[FDA]

Originally posted by blackice111288
do yo think a beetle could smoke one of the 1st gen. civics? you know the ones im talking about, right? the real small ones with the 2cyl. engine that date back to the mid 70's. i would certainly hope the beetle could beatle that crap. i bet the mid 70's civic would take a ford aspire.:D he he:007:

The Honda 600 wasn't a "Civic", it was a Honda 600. I drove one of the earlier ones (the ones with the motorcycle-style gearbox with no synchros but with big engagement dogs) and, no, I don't think it'd beat the VW with its several times larger engine. (A late-model bug, I assume we're talking about -- with what, 2 1/2 times the displacement?) The little Honda was far from crap though (you should tone down your mouth, BTW); it was amazingly fast for its engine size. I think the late-model VW bug vs. Honda 600 race would be close.

[Commander]

My girlfriend once owned one of those Honda cars with the weird tranny, and it did in fact have a "civic" tag on it. I think it was from the mid 70's, I'd have to ask her. It was crap though, no two ways about it. It reminded me of my dirtbike wrapped in a steel shell, heh.

[FDA]

If it was a Honda 600 (the 2-cyl), the Civic tag must have been added. Sure it wasn't a Hondamatic transmission? That was a 2-speed automatic available in the early Civics; not the most potent method of geting power to the wheels, altho a similar tranny was very popular on police motorcycles (I forget whether that was a Goldwing or an inline-4). I think Honda and Guzzi were the only motorcycle manufacturers to offer auto tranny -- could be wrong.

[Commander]

I asked her about it tonight, and it was a late 70's thingy with the "semi-automatic" tranny, like you say. My mistake. Either way, P.O.S. for certain, lol!

[blackice111288]

well i have never been to familier with any car before 1988(except Chargers:D ). i assumed they were crappy because a v-twin found its way into a CAR^_^ ! I could have sworn I ve seen them with the word "Civic" on it. it was a 4door hatctback. kind of reminded me or a scaled down Dodge colt( not the colts that look like mirages).

[blackice111288]

id like to see one with a turbo, 17 inch rims, a body kit, and some lowering springs.

[FDA]

You mean like this one?
http://www.dmrgutters.com/600/im/AN600DRG.jpg

[Commander]

My word! It must be nice to have the $ to blow on a project like that. Tehre is a guy in town here with a light blue Pinto that runs 9's... It is unique, yeah, but I always figure if you are going to snazz up a car, do it to one that actually looks cool. Oh well, it ain't my money, heh. ;)

[blackice111288]

Ha Ha! Ha ha! i was just kidding!! That is madd funny!! is that 9sec. Pinto street legal? i certainly dont think so!!! How about i saw a 1989 Honda CRX that ran 12"s and was street legal on Autotrader.com . I"ll have to see it to belive it, although i dont doubt it.:D

[bogs]

My this thread certainly took another turn when I wasn't looking !

Roger , I was going only by the listings I saw for stock beetles listed on the page I was looking at . Since I couldn't verify the listings , there is no way I can even come close to commenting on what you listed about duel port heads or no . I also tried ( but failed ) to find the most current listings on beetle specs from Mexico , since I believe that was one of the last places putting them out . < sigh >

Black ice , I completely missed your post about the civic , but rest assured I'm positive your right . Also rest assured Commander is right , that wasn't even close to the current turn in the thread . As a side note , though Teej , the current turn in the thread had nothing to do with the title of the thread , either ;)

Fda , leave it to you to find something like that < pictured > .
^_^

Teej , you should well know by now that terms like " looks good "
are highly elastic things , beauty's always in the eye of the beholder . Kinda reminds me of the ( one and only ) time I went to that bike meet that goes on yearly here in the states . I can't even remember the name of the town anymore , but the number of bikers that goes to it DWARFS the actual population of the town . A couple of friends of mine talked me into going to it , since I usually didn't have any interest in such things . One of the friends with me was what we call " slow " . A real ace . Now , looking back at the event , there are a few things I can share with you all that may prevent you pain in the future .

1.) If you go to something that involves more bikers than an entire towns population , make sure you either a.> go alone , or b.> only bring thinking humans with you .

2.) If you insist on bringing sub humans with you , don't allow them to wander off on their own . Instead , tie them up and leave them in a shed somewhere that you can easily pick them up later from .

3.) If you , like us , decide to let them wander around unattended , do not decide to go looking for them just to ' make sure they are alright ' .

4.) If you do go looking for them , and they are standing next to a really ugly motorcycle with dented gas tanks , skulls painted on it , and other happy happy joy joy things , quickly leave .

5.) If you dont leave , and your sub - par friend turns to you and says " ugh , this is the ugliest piece of sheet I've ever seen " pretend not to know him .

6.) If , after he says this , the biggest ape in the crowd with the dog collar around his neck , who probably thinks your friend is the only other person in the world who really digs what hes done , suddenly starts chasing your friend , leave it be . You will find your friend , as we did , cowering in the cabinet under the sink in the mens room at the nearest fast food place . I'd lay money on it . :rolleyes:

[FDA]

Words of wisdom, bogs. :) Or just stay out of Sturgis altogether (altho you have to see Wall Drug). Reminds me of a guy I worked for, Lem Tolliver. Amazing metal fabricator -- blindingly fast, beautiful work -- his headers and pipes are in big demand in the hot rod world. He did the most beautiful hot rod from a track roadster (he's an old sprint car racer, and these are the sprint cars they run on asphalt). So this machine is amazing. Better than any. So good that he takes it to the Oakland show (big hot rod show) and gets -- second. The winner? Yuck! Some mutant thing that looks like two entirely different styles got welded together by accident (albeit very cleanly welded). Go figure.

[bogs]

I see you've been there too , eh FDA ? Sturgis is indeed the place I was trying to name , I knew if I heard it again I would remember it . Ya really got to wonder who on earth named that place for a really ugly fish ....

If anyone else goes there , you'll wonder how I could forget the name of the place , and although the town itself is nice , when the bikes , or more specifically the menagerie that rides them , are all rolled in , another name comes to mind .... :yikes:

[Justin Martin]

Commander, yeah, it's kinda ugly, but the attention getting factor is way up there. I've always thought it'd be funny to take a Geo Metro, pull the back seat out, and stick a Olds Toronado engine and tranny (the early ones, where the transmission was beside the engine) back there. It'd need a custom made tube frame to replace the Metro's weak unitbody, then just drop the Metro body down on it, but I think the drivetrain will fit back there, barely.

It'd be alot of work, but hey, imagine all the laughs you'd get when people see a Metro with big drag slicks on the back doing a burnout. ^_^


blackice, with a little redneck engineering, you can fit a V8 in a Pinto, so 9's are certainly possible. If you still don't believe it, here is the sad story of a nuclear physicist who was killed street racing his street legal, 7 second, big block Chevy powered Mazda RX2. Which is a smaller car than a Pinto.

http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=specials&content_code=00623865&Search_Type=STD&Search_ID=766035&record=3

And it is aldso further proof that not only is street racing was COMPLETELY pointless for bragging rights, it is also damn dangerous when carried to extremes.

[FDA]

Originally posted by bogs
I see you've been there too , eh FDA ? Sturgis is indeed the place I was trying to name , I knew if I heard it again I would remember it . Ya really got to wonder who on earth named that place for a really ugly fish ....

If anyone else goes there , you'll wonder how I could forget the name of the place , and although the town itself is nice , when the bikes , or more specifically the menagerie that rides them , are all rolled in , another name comes to mind .... :yikes:

Actually, Sturgis is really nice, the area there is the Black Hills and that's beautiful country. When we've RVed across the nothern states, we generally go through there. You've got the Badlands, Wall Drug (which is kinda amazing as a marketing sucess story) Rapid City (the locals call it "Rapid"), Mt. Rushmore (very cool) and thw Crazy Horse memorial, which we always drive by to see how it's going. Nice countryside, and then a little gambling in Deadwood. Then you head over the Wyoming and Devil's Tower (ultra cool :) ) and the Bighorn Mts. Last time we stopped up there for the night, we saw herds of elk and deer from the rig, and when we went for a walk, we saw a half dozen moose. And of course the deer and the antelope play. Just avoid Sturgis during the bikes, unless you're a celeb like Jay Leno, who can get in and out in style. The thing that gets me is that so many of these guys, most maybe, don't even ride their bikes to the events. They get together, rent a truck, and truck their Harleys over to whereever (Vegas the last time we were there) and then ride around posing. And there are a lot of Harley posers, execs and such, with their little leather vests and boots, etc. I really do try not to laugh... maybe the smile that leaks out is just taken for freindliness. :)

Last time we went across (last year) there was a BMW event in John Day, Oregon (which is horribly hot that time of year) and those guys were riding to it from Portland and Seattle -- and that whole route, from about Salem, Or, is beautiful, some nice bends, and smooth roads. Great riding route. Nice in the motorhome, too.

[blackice111288]

even if i had the scrilla to fix a metro up, i probaly wouldn't. it would be funny to see a little metro buring folks on the 1320. i think it would be funny to take a little 1978 Honda 600, stick a B16A and a CR-X Si R tranny in it(if it would fit:D ) and see what kind of numbers it would set on the strait line. Or fit a hemi in a crx. he he he he he. :racer:

[blackice111288]

One thing Paul Brown would want you to know, though: When his car crashed, he was winning the race.

I guess the sheet metal peeled of the car. i guess rollcages dont do any good when you flip while doing 130. that was some car.

[bogs]

Originally posted by FDA


Actually, Sturgis is really nice, the area there is the Black Hills and that's beautiful country............ Just avoid Sturgis during the bikes, unless you're a celeb like Jay Leno, who can get in and out in style. The thing that gets me is that so many of these guys, most maybe, don't even ride their bikes to the events.......

About the first part of this quote , I agree with ya , which was why I said the town itself was pretty nice . hm . Maybe I should have included the surrounding area too , the scenery is pretty fantastic . Unfortunately , when I went we didn't exactly go sight seeing much =[

On the second part , I also must have gone far enough back that it was still put on as a real deal thing . The people we saw were at least 99.5% people that really made and rode their own bikes . Hell , half of them looked like they never got OFF of the bikes .

Now , I like riding 'cycles , and did so for years ( that was the way we got there ourselves and THAT is a completely different story ! ) , but the people WE saw took biking to a wwwhhhhoooolllleee other level .

Now that I come to think about it , I remember thinking at the time they took a LOT of things to other levels . Probably not most of those to beneficial ones either .

I suppose its possible a lot has changed since I made the trip , and if I were doing it today I sure wouldn't be on the small ( 450 cc ) bike I was on then , but then , an impression like the one I got then probably was more than enough to last a lifetime .

Considering just how bad my memory is , the fact that I remember it at all should indicate how ........um..... well , I can't think of an adequate word to describe it , heh heh , but lets just say I doubt I'll forget it . :yikes:

[Radical-Al]

what to do with a pinto.

http://www.bob2000.com/motorcypintoeng02.jpg
1 put the pinto engine on a motorcycle.

http://www.bob2000.com/timspinto6.gif
http://www.bob2000.com/88motor.jpg
T-bird turbo engine

or
http://www.bob2000.com/brdsmtr.jpg

2: turbo in it

http://www.bob2000.com/bw3.jpg

3: Trans-Am race it

http://www.bob2000.com/fbp1.jpg

4: SCCA race it (this one was clocked at 148)

http://www.bob2000.com/khcruzwgn.jpg

5: make it into a crusing wagon

http://www.bob2000.com/77boss460.jpg

6: Drag race it

http://www.bob2000.com/pinto20drgster.jpg

7: last but not least, make it into a dragster.