454 In a Camaro

[Kemperz]

I was wondering if I would be able to fit a 454 into my 1989 Camaro Iroc-Z? It's got a 350 TPI in it, I want to run it up between 750-900 street legal horse. I was thinkin supercharged 454 with some major mods, is this possible, and what kind of horse power will I be looking at with the 454? 454 supercharged? Any suggestions???

[Commander]

Whoa there big fella! Allow me to go over this with you. In a nutshell, yes big-block conversions have been done to 3rg gen f-bodies, but these conversions were done either by GM as a frankenstein project, or by serious racers with bottomless wallets. I will explain why this is generally not a good plan.

First, a 454 is physically similar in size to a washing machine; it is absolutely collossal. In order for it to fit into your engine bay, you will need to modify your steering box & linkage, hood clearance, radiator clearance, you'll need to do something to get the exhaust manifolds/headers to fit between the engine and front wheel wells, and you will also need to do heavy surgery on the firewall to make the distributor fit (which may even make the car illegal at the track). Assuming you do all this, you will still need a whole new front suspension to handle the tremendous weight, a newer and bigger radiator, different motor mounts... the list goes on. Now, lets just say you manage to get it in there and she's pumping out the power you want. That 3rd gen is going to twist like a pretzel under the torque, so you will need to have sub-frame connectors installed, which isn't the end of the word, but it is still another bill to pay.

OK, so now it's all in there and the car doesn't twist anymore, but up comes the next set of obstacles. First, your transmission will make a great impression of a grenade under that much torque unless you spend thousands of $ building it up, and even then it won't last more than a couple of years tops; trannies hate excess torque. Next in line is the driveshaft, which will look like a twizzler after you tromp the gas. Oh and then comes Mr. Differential, which will sheer off the pinion gear teeth like a deli meat slicer. Axles? Heh, more twizzlers I'm afraid, that is if your lucky enough not to have them sheer right off as watch your tires go down the track without you.

Now assuming you build everything to the nuts, you still have the problem of hooking that much torque up to the ground. You would need tires so wide the back of your car would look like a steamroller. You'd have to tub the rear wheel wells to get those meats to fit, which in itself is a pain because guess what sits between the rear tires... Yup, the fuel tank. Not much room to alter that on a 3rd gen.

So it is really up to you, but these are the trials you will face should you go ahead with this swap. I recommend the biggest jesus small block you can stuff in there. My fave is a 406, but some guys go even further and build a 427 sbc. In a 3200 pound car, this will give you all the stoplight lustre you can hope for, without needing to perform rectal surgery on your car. Plus, it will still be amongst the best handling cars on Earth.

This is my forte, so you can pretty much take my word as law in this situation.

L8ER, and happy hot rodding,
TJ :HB:

[VQ]

Like commander don do that. Stick with the current engine or get a LS1 and stroke it out to about 400 cubes then go and buy a Z trim Vortech superchager. it should fit as it is simalarsize (cept for the charger which would need mods) or a S-trim Horsepower heros in Summernats were winning with them a couple yaers ago now it Twin TUrbos but the engine were also only stroked to 355 CI and put an intercooler on and a nine inch if the car isn IRS or strengthin it alot I familar with the f- body cos i in Aus but I know about the LS1 and the Holden motor. And you could even with stock internals be making at least 300 RWHP and with an intercooler and tough internals and the stroker U could have a 600 FWHP monster at 6 PSI of boost and about 600 RWHP if it at about 15psi and wil still go well and be very smooth as ling as u keep the Fuel injection.

[Kemperz]

Thanks alot guys, Commander, I think that was the funniest explination I've ever read, my wheels goin down the track but I'm still sitting at the start. Well it looks like the 454 is out, but maybe I will go for a 427, when you said 427 sbc, is that a 427 short block? And will a supercharger fit on the 427? And what kind of supercharger should I look around at? And what kind of horse would I be looking at? would it be street legal, and what other bolt ons could I put on the 427 to increase my horse power?? Any other suggestions for the car are welcome.

[Commander]

Kemperz, a 'short block' is actually just a term used for a rebuild; it consists of all the internal moving parts an existing engine needs for a complete reconstruction. A 'small block', as you likely know, is an engine core that is physicaly smaller than a 'big block'. The 427 I speak of is built from a 400 GM small block, but is massively oversized and built. I think it has something dumb like a 4.00 inch stroke and a 4.1-ish bore. If my memory serves, you need an aftermarket block that will support this mod, the GM ones get too thin between the siamesed cylinders to make this operation safe. Save yourself the trouble , however, and go with either a 400 sbc bored .30 over, to make a 406, or a 383 c.i.d., which is a 350 sbc bored .30 over with a machined 400 crank. German? right, no surprise, it gets tough tossing around all those numbers...

Ok, forget that crap, here's what you want to do: grab a 400 GM small block. You can't mistake it because it has no water jacket around the cylinders, and this can easily be seen with the heads removed. Take that engine and build it! I mean spend $3000 and you will have a powerplant that puts the Corvette Z06 to shame, no kidding. best of all, the 400 (406 after bore) is lighter than a 305 (less metal, same block) and will bolt right into place. Do this and you are stylin', seriously. Expect around 400 - 450 HP and a thunderous 450 - 500 ft. lbs of torque from such an engine with the right parts; more than enough to get you into the high 11's/low 12's in the 1/4 mile anyway, depending on where and what gears you got going.

OK, you are 16 right? First car build? Great, this is a good learning project, but don't bite off more than you can chew. Raid your local magazine stand for every Hot Rod and car mag available and memorize the info those offer. This will get you up and running. Better yet, B.S. with a few gearheads and listen to what they have to boast. Next, start out with some headers/exhaust, a new air filter, chip on your current engine in that '89 Z. These will score you 30 -50 HP while you slowly build that new kiler engine on the stand. Take your time, read LOTS of books, ask MANY questions and never be afraid to get your hands dirty, then next thing you know you have full understanding of "how to build a monster small block chevy", which you may be able to make a career from (?).

The cool thing about a small block Chev V8 is that the rule "a sbc is a sbc" applies. This means that a 305 all the way up to a 400 + will fit right in like lego. As always, there is no replacement for displacement, so if you stick with a small block, go for as many cubes as you can get.

Feel free to ask, I am here and eager to help you make a smokin' 3rg gen!,
TJ :HB:

[Justin Martin]

Another problem with a big block is that it would screw up the handling, too much weight on the front end.

I'd go with the 400 if I was on a budget, if I had unlimited money i'd probably get a aluminum block small block or an LS1, both would take alot of weight off.

[Kemperz]

Thanks alot commander, I'll make sure I come to you for help. I like the idea of the 400. Deffinatley, now what would I have to do to get ahold of the right stuff to do this. I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada.

[FDA]

One other thing. You do know you can get a 350 Chevy up to 600 hp or so on the street...

[VQ]

Yeah and if U want to get a Vortech Superhcharger S tirm or something and add that and U can get 500 RWHP without even moding the exaust

[Kemperz]

Ok, well lets say money is no object, so tell me what I should do to this car to make it as fast as I want it. Please help, just any ideas are great!

[Dylan]

Mate, if your only 16 i think you should just keep your 350. if you have too much horsepower your just gonna end up smeared across the dashboard.

[Kemperz]

Well I accually don't use the Camaro as a daily driver, I also own a 1989 Chevrolet S-10 5spd, thats what I drive day to day, from school and work and stuff. My camaro is my project car, I want to make it a high performance. Believe me, I'm accually quit a responsible driver. I'm not looking to drive this thing to school and stuff, to expensive and all. I want it as a project car.

[Radical-Al]

How do You get the money anyway?

[Kemperz]

Well I have a construction job I work that pays me 15.50 an hour CND funds. And My dad and I have been buying beat up cars, fixing them and reselling them, and we've been doing it all together and we slpit the money, and I've made a pretty good sum of money out of that.

[Commander]

Seeing as how I can finally post again, I can now offer my $.02.

You need a money target. To simply say "money is no object" is senseless. You need a ballpark figure at least, and go from there. What I would suggest is slowly build a solid motor on a stand, even if it takes you a couple of years. In the meantime, do a bit of cheap tricks to your existing engine to keep you above stock.

As for the engine buildup, you are in Canada, so a 400 block is easy to find, unlike in the states. If you do not wish to go with the torque monster, and stick with a 350, it doesn't change anything, the steps to build will be the same, and you will still make some major power.

First things first. What car is it going in? You know that already, a 1989 Camaro. So, figure what you want that particular car to do. Will it be track only, 1/4 mile? Road course? Street? You get what I am saying here i hope, and this will determine what gearing, suspension and tires you will want.

Next, you want to explore your options. First will be the engine, obviously. Work with the guys at your local speed shop to build you a nice combo. I could list you all the parts I use but that would be my combo, and it may not be what you want. Most importantly, the steps to follow are the same for any buildup, despite what parts you end up buying. Your first step is to get a block; either your existing one, or preferably one you can put on the stand so you don't need to leave your car without a powerplant. Get that block to your machinist and have it hot-tanked, acid-flux tested for cracks, machined to whatever oversize you want, and have them prep it with freeze plugs and cam bearings. That will get you a block that is ready to go. Next, you want to create what is known as your "rotating assembly". This consists of your crankshaft, pistons, and connecting rods (balancer and flexplate/flywheel too if you are building a 400; it is externally balanced). Get your bearing and gasket kit at the same time just to save time. Now, you have the stuff you want to make your rotating assembly, so get that block back to the machinist with all your parts and have it honed to suit your pistons, and balanced. The machinist will custom tailor each cylinder for each piston and mark them, so don't mix anything up.

Okay, with that done, you can bring the block home and put it back on the stand, and install your rotating assembly. It will start to look like a real engine at this point, and should you choose to stop the buildup there and use the parts from your current 350 to finish it off, then you can do so, but you've gone this far so I advise to keep building. next, save up some money. Really, don't rush it, and save a couple grand to really get some nice cylinder heads and a good cam. I recommend the Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, they are about $1500 CAN and are ready to install out of the box (valvetrain is already installed on them), and as far as a cam goes, every rodder has his fave, but I take David Vizard's side and prefer high lift with moderate duration. Something like .50" lift with around 230 - 250 duration. It makes more low-end torque, which I am a big fan of

Great, now you have half an engine on your hands. At this point, you can either eject your current engine and use its parts to finish your new one, or you can keep building, which is what I advise.

Say you take my advice and keep building. The only real things left to get are intake manifold (if you don't already have a cool one), good carb (stuff fuel-injection on a project like this) and a good exhaust & headers (again, if you do not already possess such things). With these components, along with some goodies like new pushrods and perhaps some full roller rockers (worth about 10 - 15 HP), will fininsh your engine. The only thing you will need to do is swap over the accessories from your existing engine, like water pump, alternator, power steering etc. I prefer to get a few chrome nick-nacks too, like $50 chrome valve covers, braided hoses, chrome air cleaner blah blah blah. This is just cosmetic, but why not make 'er look good, n'est-ce-pas? Maybe a better rad is in order too, if you don't have a 3 core cooler. Just a safe step to ensure she doesn't become an egg poacher

SPOOOON! you have a killer engine now, but what about the rest of your car? Your tranny will take abuse up to about 450 HP if it is a well built automatic TH-350. I don't have much faith in the 5 speed manuals, but try it, if it blows up, then replace it, hehe. Your diff will hold, but don't be scared if it blows up too, no big deal, just replace it.

The one thing you WILL want, no matter what, is a set of subframe connectors. 3rd gen f-bodies are prone to twisting under high torque (esopecially with T-roofs), so in order to make sure your doors always close properly, you will want these installed. Don't fart around with these dumb things, just take the car to a muffler or exhaust place and bet your socks they can put them on for little cost. Often guys at "Midas" for example, would love to get away from the mundane pipework and do something cool. It just isn't worth the hassle of trying to get them on yourself.

Next would be tires, and you can go up to about 255 wide on these cars before you need to worry about it looking dumb with the tires sticking out of the wheel wells by 3 inches. These tires will help you hook all that power up to the ground. Try 245/50/R15.

That's about it. You'll have a car that can run a 1/4 mile with the best factory Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari, Lamborghini or Viper you may ever meet. And all for around $3000 - $4000, depending on what parts you buy.

Have fun dude, and happy hot rodding.
Remember, never rush it, just take your time and do it right.

L8ER,
TJ :HB:

[Kemperz]

Thats was an excellent post, thank you for your input. I agree not to push it. I'm only 16 and I really don't feel like wrapping myself around a tree. You've really got my attention with the building up a new engine on stand and leaving the 350 in it. This is going to be a long term project, couple years at least. I've got the money but where's the fun in just buying a whole load of crap at one time and not having the right wrench time in it. Well I'll keep you upadated on whats goin on, I believe I'm going to start work on it within the next couple of weeks.

[Commander]

Good man! You will not be disappointed, because that build-up engine will be right there on the stand. I mean, you can wheel it into your room if you want (I have done it) and you can admire the machine as you slowly pass out at night only to dream of future horsepower.

Kemperz, you have chosen a great route, and allow me to say that it is NOT easy, but do it now and you have yourself a bucketfull of knowledge that will serve you for ages to come. As always, feel free to ask, I willl gladly help you get that 3rd gen get up into the 11's. Most importantly, you will know your mouse (er, Chevy small block, not the thing that moves your cursor, heh), and be able to improve upon it as you learn.

Rod-On!
Commander

[[XR]meTh]

Hey Commander....

Very informative and concise posts you have here. I was wondering if you could tell me if there are any tried and proven ways of building a V6 4.3 Litre Chevy engine so be , well, a little healthier than a standard rebuild. I have an 1989 Chevy S-10 Blazer 4WD *in California*, and it has 175,000 miles on it. It still runs strong, and as I change the oil every 5000 miles, I don't even have to add a quart in between, and the oil isn't completely black after 5000 either, so I think I got a while on this one. I have done the following:

Installed Mallory "Hyfyre VI-a" CD Compter Controlled Ignition module

Hypertech Thermo Master CHIP

Installed Helix "Power Tower" TBI manifold spacer

Holley 670CFM Throttle Body

JBA headers, Car Sound Hi Flow Catalytic, and Flowmaster 50 Series SUV Performance Muffler Dual Outlets

B & M Transpack Stage II Performance

BellTech Lowering Kit for 4WD's - 3" Front & Rear

Michelin Pilot XGT H4 P235/60R-15 98H on the rear

I'd like to know your opinion of what has been done, and when I get another CA 4,3 Litre V6 to replace this one, what mods I could/should do to the heads, Intake Manifold, block, Pistons, etc.
I don't plan to race it "per say", but when I have no passeger(s), I drive rather aggresivley, and I like to have fun. I have had some muscle in the past, a 73 Firebird, 73 Duster, 72 "fake" Trans Am. This truk is the most all around practical vehicle I have ever owned, as I am a Musician(Electric Bass-Rock/Metal=Big Bass Cabinets), and I live in San Francisco(Great Turning Radius in this Truck). I want to keep it Smog Legal(boooo), but I want it to sound healthy at idle as well as acceleration, andtop speed is not as important as mid range acceleration. Right now I think it kind of winds high revs while on the freeway at 65mph-75mph, and I think thats due to the smaller diameter tires and the 4wd gearing, The trans is a TH-700R4/4L60. I think a new ring gear and pinion in the rear axle might be called for, bur will I have to match the front gearset as well? I want to keep the 4wd intact for winter driving when I go to the Tahoe area to snowboard, but I don't take it off-road on trails or mudrunnin'.

Anyway, let me know what you think, and thanks in advance.

[Commander]

Sounds to me like you have pretty much done everything you can except for the heads. I have never shopped around for aftermarket heads for that engine, but I am sure they exist. If not, your local machine shop should be able to do a nice porting and polish job, which will really make a difference. Also, another cam might be in order, but if I am not mistaken, the V6 won't tolerate as much lift; maybe something like .46-ish, which is still rather nice.

As far as the gears go, you must really have a low final drive if the RPMs are high even with the overdrive tranny. I would suggest putting lower gears in the final drive(s), but it sounds like they are already quite low as is.

Hmm... I think you are about maxed out there, you just need heads and cam really. For more info, you may be wise to search the internet for sites specializing in such engines, as I am more familiar with V8 applications and my input on your buildup is mainly guesswork.

BTW, good call on the music!
Rock on,
TJ :HB:

[[XR]meTh]

Yea, I figured that was 'bout all there was left were the heads and camshaft, and a intake manifold (maybe).

I have yet to do the exhaust , throttle body, and shiftkit, but I drove it for the first time on the freeway last night and I felt a definite improvment on the response and acceleration deptfrom the changes I have made so far(TBI spacer, Mallory VI-a, and Chip), with the weak link being the soft shifting(even when manually shifting) transmission, and the rattley exhaust. I never noticed how "constricted" or choked it felt until I got it on the freeway fully warmed up.

The high RPM on the freeway is not as bad as I imagined it to be actually, but it gets up and goes when I step on it that is for sure. The Kickdown is a bit pre-mature tho, and I suspect since I raised the TBI up about an inch, it has changed the throttle position cable's geometery a touch. I can probably put an equal spacer under the bracket/cable guide to restore the proper setting.

you say .40-ish. Is that over the stock lift, or a total? Any ideas on if an intake manifold would be necessary or worth doing when the new heads are going on, and if so, what should I look for?

Again thanks for your invaluable insights, and uh, SLAYER!!!!!!!! Uh, ya that's all, I'm done.