New Management at SNR

[DC_McGregor]

For a long time Doug (roush1d/DC_Racecar) and myself have been administering to SaturdayNiteRacing, a Yahoo club created by Lance Skene (Spede Demn/DC_Spd)

We are currently in the middle of a disagreement about how the club should be run. Lance has won that disagreement. I have posted my displeasure with his actions at SNR. I logged on to find both posts deleted and the club is now moderated. I need HIS permission to post. Fat chance of that.

Needless to say, I am both upset and angry at this high-handed treatment.

Unfortunately, Yahoo will not allow me to leave that group. I must first remove my moderator privileges. I cannot do that since my privileges to do that have been removed.

@ Lance. Please remove my moderator privileges so I may unsubscribe from YOUR club.

Lance, you make me ashamed to be a member of the Demolition Crew with your behavior. You are no team mate of mine.

The following messages are exact reprints of the posts that were deleted.

Please read and respond to them.

Thanks all,

Robert

[DC_McGregor]

Lance (Spede Demn/DC_Spd) has returned to SNR after a long absence and
apparantly has decided that he does not like the way "his" club has
been run
in his absence. He has made a number of changes without consulting his
Demolition Crew team mates and co-moderators of SNR
(DC_RaceCar/DC_McGregor).

Who indeed "owns" SNR? For the record, Lance did indeed create SNR.
About
nine months ago, Lance completely abandoned SNR and SCGT to race GPL.
Doug
and I really did not want to administer SNR but accepted that task.
We have
kept it alive and it has been a source of fun for all that have been
attending. The Vintage series was created by Tim Miller. He has also
gone
elsewhere. And again, Doug and I have kept the series going. The
question,
"Who owns Vintage Racing?" can also be asked.

I believe that the ownership of SNR and Vintage Racing belongs to all
those
that contribute to it. Not just the goup moderators (Lance, Doug and
myself). Everyone who has taken the time to post or race. We have all
added
to the value of SNR.

Lance was very miffed when I refused to censure someone for
accidentally
failing to apply AOE. He was also very miffed at what he believed to
be
violations by Doug and myself for not keeping 2 wheels on the roadway
(that
includes the curbs). I reviewed one of the replays and found that in
my case
he was indeed correct. However, it was also plain to see that in all
but one
case, I lost time going off. It was also readily apparant that the
over-riding feature of my driving was its sloppiness. I guess that's
what
happens when you're pushing to the absolute limit. Yes, I could have
slowed
down and been sure of being absolutely legal. Where's the fun in
that? I
came to race and have fun, not to follow a narrow interpretation of
the
rules. I have posted many times as such.

What about that rule? It came about because some racers were
deliberately
short cutting chicanes without slowing down or making any attempt at
following the chicanes. They would fly over sand traps with only
minimal
loss of speed. I have chosen to follow the spirit of that rule. I have
repeatedly posted that if the replay shows that you attempted to make
the
chicane, you made it.

When I entered SNR chat last Saturday, I was greeted with some snide
remarks
about "mowing grass" and some such. I got more via private email.
When I
read the rules that Lance has posted, I find the phrase, "Driver
error is
expected however continual use of the dirt for 4 tires will result in
a
driver receiving the prestigious "Off Roader of the Race" award." I
can
guess who that is aimed at. And who will award it.

I am almost 62 years of age. My health has deteriorated substantially
over
the past year and I am no longer able to race (or even post) as much
as I
used to. I probably only have one more year of online racing before I
have
to quit altogether. (God, please give me TWO!) I don't want that
ruined.

Now, Lance has deleted the Vintage cars from "our" file section and
moved
them to a new group that only HE has control of. Vintage Racing
doesn't
belong to you Lance. It was created by Tim Miller and maintained by
Doug and
myself. Why are you attempting to usurp it? Shall we have a little
turf war
Lance? You delete everything I do and I delete everything you do? I
have no
desire to to that. You need to show a little respect for the efforts
of
others.

Lance, I find your private communications and public actions here at
SNR to
be small minded and mean spirited. You make me ashamed to be a
Demolition
Crew member. I most certainly will NOT join any Yahoo club that you
create.

I have not decided exactly what I will or won't do in the future. I'm
angry
right now and I need to cool off before making any decisions.

Robert

Post Script:

I decided not to post this message, but rather to send a copy of it
via email to Doug and Lance. Since then, I have found out that Lance
has changed my moderator permissions and have been limited in what I
can or cannot do. Lance is determined to take control of this Yahoo
group. Fine. Thanks, "team mate". I will not race with Lance
(DC_Spd/Spede Demn) under any circumstances.

If anyone feels that I have not made proper decisions here, please
post. I'd like the feed back.

[DC_McGregor]

Since Lance (DC_Spd/Spede Demn) has determined that HE is the owner
of this club, I have deleted all of the files that I have uploaded to
SNR's file section. Considering that I have a 56K connection, that
uploading was a large effort on my part.

If you need any files or assistance, please direct your requests to
the "new" management.

If you find this to be petty and mean spirited, so be it. I'm just
responding in kind.

I would expect that my permissions will be edited again. Perhaps even
to be banned? <grin>

[DC_McGregor]

Originally posted by DC_McGregor
I would expect that my permissions will be edited again. Perhaps even to be banned? <grin>

And sure enough they were! LoL

Now If I can just piss off Lance enough to remove my moderator privileges, I can quit the club. How about it Lance?

McGrin

[DC_Spd]

You don't need to piss me off for that, just ask.

Lemme shorten the story for ya bit,

There is a two tire rule, the two fastest people week after week for some reason found a need to short cut the chicanes by putting 4 tires off as many as 23x's in a single 24 lap race.

I don't find that acceptable.

[DC_McGregor]

Originally posted by DC_Spd
You don't need to piss me off for that, just ask.


Consider yourself asked.

That we disagree about the interpretation of the 2 tire rule is no longer the point.

Your high-handed tactics are.

BTW, I have just been informed that only Doug's and my posts at SNR require YOUR permission. Anyone else may post freely.

Just another example of those high-handed tactics that I object to.

[DC_McGregor]

When I returned to SNR to quit the club and post a farewell message, I found that I had been removed from the club.

I have no intention of rejoining to say goodbye, so I'll say it here. Assuming that I haven't been banned that is. Have I been, Lance?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Due to a disagreement between myself, I am quitting Saturday Nite Racing and will no longer participate in any of the club's functions.

Robert
DC_McGregor

[racecar1]

I awake to find my moderator privileges at SNR have been removed as well. Fine thanks for keeping SNR running all these many months.

Probably because I dared to point out your shortcomings. Nobody ever does that to Lance no matter how wrong the way you go about things is, do they?

So everyone knows what I'm talking about, here's the e-mail contents:

"I see you have "returned" to being in charge, and despite in 2 e-mails mentioning the obvious (that is, we do have e-mail addresses), you decided to delete Vintage cars from easy access and make other changes etc.
Funny, I don't recall SNR coming anywhere near the file limit even with the Vintage cars I had put up there. Even with Montreal taking up half the existing space and it should be removed really, we only post other people's files without permission in a crunch.
Good job with the rules, btw.
Anyway, more by accident than anything, we see who is in charge! I'm not used to this way of doing things as Mac and I would confer before making changes.
But what i think doesn't matter. Good luck with running SNR again."

Lance, your way of making an environment less than fun is very effective but bewildering. You don't have the values of a DC and should resign from the Club.

SNR is most probably dead however you might find the occasional person to race against.

At the very least, Demolition Crew is no longer associated in any way with SNR. I'm now embarrased I allowed you into DC in the first place.

[racecar1]

Here is what a participant at SNR had to say in a post there, which says it all.
Like Mac's posts, it will probably be deleted by the Man With The Power...lol.
From a Forum where Lance was posting derogatory remarks before and when I mentioned my concerns in a private e-mail about the impression they were leaving on DC and SNR in terms of others, he said its public forum and he is free to post whatever he wants!!!!!
Go figure....

" please, in the name of fun. let us not lose site of the focus here in snr. the focus is to race for fun. we dont collect points really, so
no advantage is gained. lance/spd demn, u seemed ticked due to a slow return to form in the heats. dc has been hot, montreal is not easy, least of all in some overpowered add on car; mistakes happen .
dont go ballastic. RE-INSTATE his membership. this club lacks racers as it is. dc has been a faithful participant and supporter for ages.
i come here only to compete in his class and form. if he is not
reinstated i will employ his services in my club and start a new
league.
i thought u were all neighbors, best buds, good freinds. this
attitude is not mature. i too am now in jeopardy with my membership, but come what may. driving this tracks is not easy. one should not be punished so severly. please please please RECONSIDER. lastly others my take further defence in dc's behalf and the handfull of racers may dissapear all together."

[DC_McGregor]

That post by the_trophycup_club was started at the Motorsports club - another Yahoo club that races SCGT onine. I had posted there that I was "no longer affiliated with SNR" (Ok, I said I got booted in so many words.)

Here is a paste of his post.

no, no, no, no, no. this is all too unsportsmanlike. dc i am in
your corner. i shall lobby for your return. in the meanwhile i will
host you on saturdaynites regardless. if worse comes to worst there
is always my club which you can administrate. this can not be the
outcome of(over) a few cut chicanes. please be on yahoo at the usual
prescibed hours for racing. this conversation we b continued in the
snr bb!


Thank you TC, from the bottom of my heart. You have accorded me a high honor!

Sadly, there is no hope of my ever returning to SNR. Nor will I ever enter a pit to race with Lance Skene (Spede Demn). I am slow to anger, but even slower to forgive.

And thank you Doug for your comments and support. You have said briefly what I struggled to express. And did a better job of it.

Thanks again, partner!

[racecar1]

Originally posted by DC_Spd
You don't need to piss me off for that, just ask.

Lemme shorten the story for ya bit,

There is a two tire rule, the two fastest people week after week for some reason found a need to short cut the chicanes by putting 4 tires off as many as 23x's in a single 24 lap race.

I don't find that acceptable.

This is disgusting, and a total lie! What has gone wrong in your brain Lance?

Here is an exact quote from your own e-mail about Montreal:

" My replay clearly show's you both completely with 4 inside the curb's on several occasions."

Your e-mail is correct. Your 23 out of 24 is completely false.

All of this venom you are spewing is after e-mails to you from both myself and Mac. Obviously you don't listen, or had another "agenda" all along:

Mac: " each of us do our best to keep 2 wheels on the roadway (that includes the curbing). That ruling has been adopted elsewhere as well. I have encouraged others to do the same thing in my posts. I have also stated expressly that a good attempt is sufficient. (First chicane at Monaco. Remember?) I don't expect perfection from anyone. Particularly since I am not perfect myself."

Me: " Mac and I both responded before and myself posted at SNR about trying to keep 2 wheels on and within the rules, driver errors on several occasions....we commented on that ad nauseum I thought."

and,

" I just finished watching F1. Its funny all your talk about the last chicane before the start at Montreal. Mac and I have a MUCH better record of making that sequence of corners within the rules than they do."

You watched the replay and it must have been very clear we were always trying to make that chicane within the rules, missed doing so several times, and the stats (press S) show our performance suffered as a result of those errors.

You can run your own series any way you like, glued to the replay monitor, delaying posting results, acting unilaterally in a shared management environment, ignoring what people say, eliminating posts in a public Forum, being rough with people.

I don't see how that can ever be considered fun and I won't have any part of it.

[DC_Spd]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Whatsyourthoughts/

[Cheyenne]

DC_McGregor
DC_Racecar
DC_Spd

Who are these people?

I don't know any of you three particularly well, but everything I have known up to this point has been entirely positive - entirely positive. That "DC" in front of your names and in your sig lines does mean a lot to me. I personally believe in being respectful of people and according them an enormous quantity of "worthiness" until they thouroughly prove otherwise. I've been told that this may make me quite naive at times. So be it. I can accept that. That's just me.

I do not mean to preach, but I was invited into this post by all three of you. You've all posted here to a place I come to experience and share with those others here who come to do the same. That's you three, in this thread. Thank you for sharing what you have here. I'll take my turn now.

What I see posted here, and what these posts are about has a good degree of pettiness to it. It actually emotionally disturbs me to say, as it's something that once commited to text and the "reply submitted", it can't be readily taken back. I regret saying it. Why? Well, it might hurt someone. Again, maybe my naivate at work. But it's how I feel.

I know something though, everyone, me, you, the guy over in the forum above, the several people perusing the main forum right now, all carry a certain degree of pettiness from time to time. It's regrettable, but sometimes it's just necessary. We get bothered by something enough to feel we need to give voice to our frustration, our anger, our pettiness sometimes. That's what free speech is for, and often it can help us move on from that point. If you're afraid it reflects badly on the "Crew", well, it does a bit. But if someone wants to form their sole or even major opinion on the "Crew" from this incident and these posts, well, they're just going to be "mistaken" and that is their loss. I know, once again, we all exhibit that pettiness from time to time and we can be forgiven for it. <clears throat> Can I say that again? Thank you...

I know we all exhibit that pettiness from time to time and we can be forgiven for it.

Okay. I do hope I was clear? Personally, having that "DC" in front of my name would be enough motiviation, but I bet that you three have been through more than that and have more than that to celebrate about your relationship. I don't know if you want to go about forgiving and seeking forgiveness on what's happened here, but if you do, I'm sure you are mature enough people to know how to go about getting it and giving it.

I deeply resepct you all very much and hope you find your friendship again.

Sorry for being something of an interloper here. I haven't yet explored SNR, but it was always a seemingly open door that had some sort of call for me that I had yet to answer. It just makes me a bit sad to see three such distinguished racers as yourselves in such a state of disagreement.

[TMiller]

Fair-Fun-Fast. Isn't that the moto for the DC club????? McG and Racecar is it fair when you take 2 tires off the road, and also is it fun for lance??? I get SNR's messages sent to my E-Mail and I never got an E-Mail saying that there was a 2 tire rule. I think the ball is in your court McG and Racecar.

[racecar1]

Tim, you must have just read the new rules Lance created and put up there.
SNR racing rules were "2 wheels on track". Just as you will find the rules in other SCGT racing series, and also see in real racing (eg: ALMS or NASCAR in the Sear's point hairpin, F1 at Montreal, examples abound).
Anyway the issue here is not driving, see below.

Chey....?

With all due respect, you don't know how the SCGT game plays online and the effect of lag on replay reviews.
Or perhaps you don't know the way Yahoo Groups works in terms of adminstration privilege changes.
What happened here has little or nothing to do with SCGT. It has to do with how people were treated. And it was not a petty thing. Perhaps it is not clear from all of the above.

My opinion of a comparative example of what happened. 3 co-Chairman of a Company. One (Lance) decides to go on a long vacation, first to race something else, second to move locations. Leaves running SNR to the other 2 (Mac and myself).
Returns and first, causes disruption in public, second, changes the store without consulting the other 2 co-Chairman, and third, changes the locks to the store without notice or discussion with the 2 other co-Chairmen.

This type of performance does impact negatively on DC, and is not to be trivialized IMHO.

[Cheyenne]

DC_Racecar: With all due respect...Thank you, though I don't know that I'm actually "due" any, but it's kind of you to say.you don't know how the SCGT game plays online and the effect of lag on replay reviews.Admittedly. I have zero clue on that. I might be able to extrapolate on that a bit and come up with some understanding, but I have no idea how accurate it would be since I lack any experience with it. You're absolutely right.Or perhaps you don't know the way Yahoo Groups works in terms of adminstration privilege changes.

What happened here has little or nothing to do with SCGT. It has to do with how people were treated. And it was not a petty thing. Perhaps it is not clear from all of the above.Again, you are absolutely right. I don't know how Yahoo Groups hierarchy is setup. I think I can have a moderate idea though, based on general knowledge of similar things and some more from your posts earlier in this thread. I also understand pretty well what you say about the relationship of the incidents to the game. I know it's about the people. The treatment was very important to you. It's the fundamental respect that people are to be accorded, especially friends or associates. I believe I understand that very well. And, no, that's not a petty thing. It's one of the most important issues in any relationship. There can be no relationship without respect. What got petty, and I don't believe this to be my opinion alone, I know you to be a reasonable person, DC_Racecar, from everything I know of you, what got to be petty was the displays of disrespct. No, the disrespect itself is a huge issue. And one I hope so dearly that you all can make your peace with. Not meaning to be argumentative, but simply to illustrate, I consider it petty to have deleted posts that were critical of behavior. Personally, I think that with power (being an admin or whatever) comes responsibility. Sometimes, in such a position that responsibility can mean that you have to sit there and bear what may seem to you to be abuse that you would normally protect others "from", but you yourself have to take in the interests of fairness. Now you and DC_McGregor say that DC_Spd did delete posts critical of his behavior or judgements. He doesn't seem to deny that, I'm accepting that absolutely at face value without doubt. I consider those deletions to be petty. Do you not? I would hope you agree.

Next, when I read both your and DC_McGregor's posts, I came across this:DC_McGregor: If you find this to be petty and mean spirited, so be it. I'm just responding in kind.

DC_Racecar: Probably because I dared to point out your shortcomings. Nobody ever does that to Lance no matter how wrong the way you go about things is, do they?"Just responding in kind"? Pettiness for pettiness? And what you say about DC_Spd/Lance here, in this last quoted line, objectively, isn't that a bit petty? It was said with some anger and tries to belittle another person. Doesn't that fit? I'm not judging here. I too can be petty, I'm always hopefully shamed by it under better judgement afterwards. Maybe that's why it affects me so much.

Please, I respect all three of you so very much. I feel hurt by this, my own fault, I tend to feel people's emotions inside, some sort of vampyric empathy, maybe. I'm sorry for butting in. But you three obviously seem to "care" here. You would not be so upset otherwise. I care too, though I don't know the situation. I'm just saying that sometimes we all feel the need to be petty, it can serve us. Just a time of forgiveness needs to come after especially for people once friends, and maybe hope for the future. Forgiveness doesn't mean returning to old behavior patterns that caused the problems in the first place, but it means no grudges are borne. I know you three can reach that place.

DC_Racecar: This type of performance does impact negatively on DC, and is not to be trivialized IMHO.I do agree. I thought I stated as much earlier. If I failed in text, it was however my meaning, so i do aplogize to you or to the Crew as a whole for my error. I certainly didn't mean to trivialize it. I simply meant sometimes you need to get something out and say your bit, and you shouldn't worry about it too much. Being DC doesn't mean you aren't human. That's all.

You've got my respect, always. I never meant to be disrespectful or argumentative. I just wished to express my hope that you could forgive each other and yourselves and perhaps even possibly find your friendship again in doing so. I've got faith in you guys. Call me naive, but I believe in you and your honor, your integrity. Sometimes we slip a bit, and that's okay. It's okay, DC_Racecar.

[racecar1]

Chey, I know what you are trying to do and appreciate the attempt.
And I believe you are trying to suceed at walking a fine line of not being judgemental and resolving a situation you are not close to -tricky stuff without all the information or first hand knowledge!

Yes, certain words/comments within a reaction by someone who has been victimized can often be found to contain biting criticism. And to focus on individual components like that tends to divert.

I will not try to compete on the writing front in terms of volumes of words. Nobody can :) Example, your piece about Acca leaving in that thread about sailors moving on, brilliant.

However I must once again express concern over trivialization, which the extent/volume of the writing in your reply has the effect of increasing.
It has the effect of a diversion from what is a very serious issue indeed.
Which is, nothing less than;
- the implosion of a racing series.
- personal emotional damage inflicted on someone who is sick.
- and finally, actions way out of line from someone carrying a DC badge.

[DC_McGregor]

Cheyenne,

First of all, you are respected and you have earned that respect by your actions and your posts here at tnfs.

Chey, I'm sorry but I cannot, at this time, take your very good advice. I have been sorely offended and hurt by Lance's words and actions. To the extent that I will not easily forgive them.

You correctly pointed out that I admitted to being petty myself. Let that admission be a measure of my honestly. I will not bend the truth to win an argument. If I have any God, it is the Truth itself.

[DC_McGregor]

Here's a bit of background on the 2 tire rule - from my experience.

I first became aware of the problem of cutting chicanes over a year ago at the Motorsports club - a yahoo club. In a race replay, I saw a driver go through a chicane without braking at all - full speed in 5th gear. Right through the sand trap without losing much speed. The rest of us were using 2nd or 3rd gear, clipping both corners of the chicane to make good time. I don't recall any discussion about this at the Motorsports club. Sorry.

I was later (about August) involved in discussions with Doug and Mike Farrar at the Online Ladder for SCGT about this same problem. The long and short of it is:

Two wheels on the track at all times. The curbing is to be considered part of the track. If a racer does get four wheels off the track, but does not improve his position (or gain time), there is no infraction. If a racer improves his position (passes a competitor) by taking all four wheels off the track, he must immediately pull up and allow his competitor to regain the position position lost by that infraction. (Note: I had a hard drive format last December and no longer have those original documents. I reproduced this from memory, but paraphrased it for what I felt is clarity.)

Essentially the same rule that exists in Formula One today. It is also the rule that has been used at SNR since for a long, long time.

One year ago, Lance also made it a point to put 2 wheels over the curbing at appropriate places.

Why do I mention this since it has already been acknowledged? Here is a reprint of post #1066 from SNR:

[From: spede_demn
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 7:17 am
Subject: wait a damn minute..

it's been along time since I bothered to study a replay but seeing as
I was so far off pace last night I figured I needed to. Obviously,
I'm not getting as much practice as I used to but that was apparently
only part of the problem.

Not to offend anyone but:

There was alot more grass cuttin' than what I understood was
considered to be acceptable around here. I was under the impression
that, "keeping two wheels on the track", meant you try keep 4 on and
if you miss the odd time, no big deal. You guys were apparently
striving to keep only 2 on and on several occasions weren't able to,
there was clearly grass between you and the track.

There is 3 sets of "s's" at Montreal, all of which I was gearing down
to 2nd in an attempt to say on the track. You guys were using 3rd but
not being overly successful. I thought the idea was to run the inside
tires on the curbs, when the outside tires start to drop inside the
curbs, isn't that cutting a little too much grass?]

Here is a reprint of Doug's reply (message #1067).

[From: "roush1d" <dougjp@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 7:53 am
Subject: Re: wait a damn minute..

No offense taken Lance. Two wheels on track is exactly that. You take
what the track can give you while staying within the rules. As we were
saying in chat and in posts, at this track you have to use every
single curb.

Personally I know my fastest lap was out of line as I missed the
curbing on the last chicane due to driver error. Usually when I mess
up the lap times are much worse, but not that time.

Montreal with AOE off is more the exception than the rule, most tracks
will bite you bad and for sure are slower if you don't keep at least 2
wheels firmly on the track at all times. Some even with 2 wheels just
touching on certain curbs, AOE on or even sometimes when its off. The
A-1 Ring comes to mind as an example of that but there are lots of
others.

I don't think you will find the same thing tonight with AOE on, which
is one of the advantages of using it.
Also when driving over a curb at pretty well any track, driving
becomes a major problem and consistent lap times only come with lots
of practice and the sense of when to be at part throttle. 9 laps out
of 10 gaining 1/2 second doesn't compute with one lap losing 10
seconds!!

I think everybody here is trying to drive within the rules as best we
can. A good example of knowing that was Monaco. Nobody straight lined
the chicane at the end of the tunnel. There, speaking for myself, I
always managed to keep 2 wheels on the driving surface but I never had
4 on at the right hander in that left/right! <g>

Doug]

As we see, Lance was originally complaining about cutting corners at all. After doing a little checking, he found that we were not cutting any corners. And according to the accepted rules I had been applying (and encouraging) at SNR, we were completely legal. In the intro for Monaco, I stated, "... The chicanes are difficult. Do try to avoid shortcutting them. Rest assured, the management will NOT be watching closely, but do try...". (Message #993) I have also stated in another post, "If the replay shows that you have tried to make the chicane, you did."

When I entered SNR chat for Saturday Night's GTQ race at Montreal, I was greeted with a couple of snide remarks about grass cutting, etc. Later that night, I spent a thoroughly wasted 3 or 4 hours going over my replay of Friday's 24 lap Vintage race with a fine tooth comb. On lap 6, I found a clear violation, although it is doubtful whether any time was gained. On my best lap, I was off on the last chicane by a bare tire width. On that lap, I had noted how far ahead of my previous best time I was. When I crossed the finish line, I found that my "transgression" had cost me at least 3 tenths of a second.

I reviewed a few of Lances laps in that replay. He showed an exaggerated, deliberate avoidance of cutting the corners at all. I firmly believe (and subsequent events seem to support) that he planned the ensuing events with malice aforethought. That last may be a bit strong. I honestly believe the malice escalated over a relatively brief period of time. I know it did for me.

When I finally posted the results for Montreal on the following Monday, I made this comment (message #1079):

[There was also a transgression that has to be dealt with. On lap 1,
McG punted Burmcat off course and failed to stop. He will be assessed
a stop and go penalty of 30 seconds added to his time. Sez
McG, "Sorry BC. I didn't know I hit you until I reviewed the replay."
For the record, I don't expect this penalty to be applied again. I
just felt that since McG is one of the organizers of the series, he
should set an example of good sportsmanship. This he failed to do. ]

This is a very serious transgression. We have another rule at SNR (which came, if memory serves, from the Online Ladder mentioned above). That rule explicitly states that if you punt another car off, you must immediately pull up and allow the other car to regain the track (and his position) before resuming the race. I don't know if we've ever written it down anywhere, but we have communicated it often. Both in posts and in the chat.

This is the very first issue that Lance should have raised. And he would have received my complete support. But apparantly, he had another agenda in mind.

On the following night's racing (GTQ on Saturday), I attempted a pass of CaseyE21. We may have made contact and I went off course. Casey pulled up to allow me to regain the track. The truth of the matter is that I was on a flyer and hoped to improve my personal best. I was overly aggressive and if any contact was made, it was completely my fault. In the posted race results, I complemented Casey on his sportsmanship, although I did not criticize myself sufficiently.

That's the kind of sportsmanship we HAD at SNR.

The point of this message is to show that we had adopted an attitude that the important things are: Being fair. Having fun. Being fast. Sound familiar?

One of the essential requirements for having fun is not having to worry about someone looking over your shoulder and nitpicking every little error. (God knows, I make enough of them.)

Another essential requirement is not having to look over someone else's shoulder and nitpick every little error. That would have been me and I have better things to do. Mostly illegal, immoral or fattening. <g>

The reason that I started this thread is that I have been treated in a mean-spirited, high-handed manner. To say that I am angry would be an understatement. Livid would be far more accurate.

You PU'ers know what it's like to have an atmosphere filled with rancor and accusations. Until now, we had completely avoided that problem at SNR. We had a small, informal series that was hallmarked by trust and respect. Thanks Lance.

For me, SNR is dead. And I have put a lot of my heart and soul into it. Thank you for that as well, Lance.

[racecar1]

Well said Mac.
It certainly appears Lance had another agenda in mind when he came back. The one he has just concluded.

[DCWeasel]

Whew....
ok... Rob, Lance, Doug, I am totally ignorant of what's going on with SCGT except that I was pointed to this post to peruse what sort of attitude is prevailing.
I'm disappointed to see this happen among us. I would like for each of you to e-mail me and Mark (since we are captain and co-captain of the team) with your perspectives of what happened, what started it, and where you personally feel this issue needs to go from here.
We've only ever had to strip the DC tag from one former team-mate for being unfair... I don't want to eject anyone else from our club because they don't play fair, but from what I see in this thread, I'm ready to kick all 3 of you to the curb!
However, if I were to do that then I would be as guilty as all of you of unfairness and then I'd have to show myself to the door.
Lets settle this as adults, please!
I personally apologize to everyone else who is affected and/or offended by the actions of these individuals, on behalf of Team DC. Chey, thank you for trying to be the voice of reason. I'm as lost as you are when it comes to SCGT but I know a pissing match when I see one.

[D_Man]

I am saddened by what has happened. I have always liked and respected you guys and this has come as a bit of a shock.

From what I have read, it all started over some difference in interpretation of the 2 wheels on the racing surface rule. If I had still been racing, I would probably be banned for constantly stuffing up the chicanes - damn Hockenheim etc.

Anyway, the point in real racing is that people should not deliberately cut chicanes and, if they accidently do it, they should not benefit from it. If I did over-shoot a chicane and benefit as a result, I would slow down so that I removed any benefit gained.

I find it hard to believe that Mac or Doug would deliberately cut chicanes to gain advantage. In recent races I have seen professional racing drivers cutting chicanes because they braked a bit too late or locked up a tyre - drivers error - it happens.

I think that Mac and Doug have worked hard to keep SNR going all this time and I am shocked at the way this has developed adn the way they have been treated.

I don't like taking sides in something that doesn't involve me, but I think, from what I have read, that this is an exception. As an ex-member of both the Demolition Crew and SNR, I think Lance has been high-handed and autocratic.

This whole issue could have been sorted out privately if the ones affected had shown each other respect and honour. The difference in how one rule is interpreted should not have been to great an issue for mature people to resolve.

Anyway, enough ramblings of a "talented grass-cutter", I can do it so well that I often do it backwards or sideways :D

Dave

[DC_McGregor]

Quote from Mel, my good friend, neighbor and currently visiting:

"I have seen so many people on the internet who get so upset over a moral stance they take and simply cannot understand why no one agrees with them."

Good one!!! Sound like anyone we know and love? <g> BTW, in case it's unclear, that remark is aimed primarily at myself and only secondarily at Lance.

More from Mel. "A cyber environment is not a direct human interface. It isn't face to face. Direct human cues are completely lacking. You can't punch someone in the face if he pisses you off. (Considering my physical stature, I'm the punchee.) And you cannot enforce a resolution of any disagreement. They tend to go on and on. As the ancient Greeks used to say, 'Life is but a stage of play. So take your part and put all seriousness away. Or bear the smart.' We invest a lot of time and money in the systems we use to access the internet. If we're not having fun with it, why bother. If you don't like what's on TV, change the damned channel. It's a world of choices. There ain't (sic) very many restrictions other than what you apply yourself."

Good friend, Mel is. We tend to counterbalance each other nicely. He gets off on his tirades too. Then I argue him out of it.

Scratch a Scotsman and what do you find? A very strong sense of pride. A strong sense of determination and resolution. A very hot temper. An overdeveloped sense of right and wrong. Especially of being wronged. And many other double-edged characteristics.

I am indeed a Scotsman, although I don't really carry the banner other than my persona name. Or as I often like to say, "Just another typical Scottish arsehole." <g>

Thanks all,

Robert

[racecar1]

I apologize for posting in this public forum on this subject.

[DC_McGregor]

I am the person that brought what should have been a private issue to this public forum.

I apologize the the racing community for doing this and posting inflammatory remarks.

We all tend to view things from our own perspectives and of course believe we are right.

However, we should never let our passions interfere with listening to and understanding the other person's point of view. I failed to do that.

Whatever the rights and wrongs are in this issue, they no longer matter. It is time to bring this issue to a close.

Thank you all,

Robert
DC_McGregor

[Spede Dem'n]

Ya !! I can follow this lead. In the heat of it all I participated in this thread even though I knew better and I apoligize to the community here at Total for doing so!


Lance

[DC_McGregor]

And so the circle becomes complete.

Josh, would you please close this thread?

[WCOutlaw]

Consider the thread closed...

WCOutlaw/Phil