A real threat of a bigger terrorist attack on the U.S. [Archive]

View Full Version : A real threat of a bigger terrorist attack on the U.S.

AccadaccA

05-19-2002, 12:15 AM

God forbid it happening but apparently there is a lot of talk about a bigger scaled attack on America.

Apparently a lot of housing has been bought for the sole purpose of loading them with explosives in the next attack on the U.S.
They say appartments have been randomly bought or leased scattered throughout many residential areas.

How piss-weak!! It would be like someone having a complaint with you but taking it out on your kid sister.
I can think of many more practical uses for that sort of money.

05-19-2002, 12:26 AM

I just heard about this.. Obviously we must be very vigilant.. :read:

It seems as though the terrorists are not down and out, yet..

Cheyenne

05-19-2002, 01:24 AM

Actually, you have to both take things like this seriously and also with some skepticism. This could be part of a process called "jamming" where millitant groups are constantly proposing and partially implementing various schemes to confuse anyone spying/watching and also to possibly screen "genuine" activities. Also many such plans can be "related" at certain levels (human and other resources) and while not actually meant to ever be carried out, resources can be redirected at short notice and plans changed if other ideas become compromised.

AccadaccA...AccadaccA: I can think of many more practical uses for that sort of money.Do you mean in terrorist attack scenarios? My brother is in a cultural thinktank, and mostly they get basically "cultural" problems presented to them, but they've had some terrorits scenarios they've been asked to discuss. There are some really terrifying ones out there that don't require near the resources of the one you described at the beginning of this thread. I don't want to give anyone ideas, so I won't detail them here. But you are right, this plan is actually a bit weak. But it is interesting in a "jamming" sense as it's a supposed conspiracy that takes place of lots of large areas and would require inordinate survellance to discover even a small number of the sites involved. It's great for occupying resources of law enforcement and counter-terrorits agencies.

05-19-2002, 01:39 AM

I haven't heard any more reports on this..

Justin Martin

05-19-2002, 07:42 AM

I'm inclined to be skeptical on this one, a opperation like that would be easy to detect (uh Mabel, why are the new neighbors filling their apartment with fertilizer and diesel?) extremely expensive, and would cause little damage even if carried out perfectly. The same resources put into a truck bomb would be devastating, just look at Oklahoma City.

If anything, i'd go along with what Chey said that it could be a diversion. I don't doubt they're planning new attacks though.

TraffikD

05-19-2002, 08:22 AM

I think this is just a lame attempt by our government to make us think they are actually doing something. So they make up more b.s. to get us riled up and interested.

I for one don't care. I've heard enough of 9/11 and would like to hear some other damn news for once when I turn on the tv.

I hate the US media.

DCWeasel

05-19-2002, 08:28 AM

Justin, I don't know what part of the world you live in, but I happen to live in an area that has a methamphetamine infestation - people are "cooking" meth everywhere. We just had a toddler in the hospital poisoned because he got into his mommy's meth stash. So yes, even Mabel's neighbor might be cooking meth. It's a good thing Mabel is nosy, and she is seeing her new taliban neighbors carting c-4 into the house by the wheelbarrow because most neighbors in the US care not one dry fart what is happening next door.
Unfortunately, too many people are not watching what's going on around them. Our meth problem in the inland North West is so bad they have busted a DAY CARE with a meth lab in the basement. Can you imagine anyone taking their child to a day care with a meth lab downstairs? You'd think the smell alone would alert people but no, they just ignore things like that and go on their merry way. Meth labs STINK bad like chemicals, and still, nearly every day, a new meth lab is busted in this area. It's not difficult to get away with stuff like this. For every one that gets busted, 3 or 4 more do not. Unless the drug dealer actually sells to a cop or a neighbor complains about the smell, meth labs go virtually unnoticed and unbusted. Just like the plan outlined, the meth cookers go rent a house, move their meth cooking stuff in, and cover the windows. There ya have it! Keep the kerosene cans and the ephedrin wrappers out of the front yard, and you have it made!
It would be easy to implement a plan like renting houses and filling them up with bombs. Ya just go rent a house - they're everywhere.... and move yer crap in. Just because a box is labeled "bedroom stuff" or "kitchen stuff" doesn't mean it can't be full of plastique.

Justin Martin

05-19-2002, 08:43 AM

Good points Vic, still, the whole opperation ranks very high on the expense scale and very low on the impact scale, which from what i've seen is the exact opposite of what al Quaeda does. Their opperations tend to be very cheap (cheaply made truck & boat bombs, hijacked planes) and very disasterous.

Getting enough fertilizer and diesel into a house to make any kind of impact would attract attention I think, meth labs are common, fertilizer and diesel aren't. Plastic explosives could be packed into a small box, but they're expensive, and why spend that kind of money just to kill a few neighbors? Why not put it in a truck bomb?

I think the general threat is very real, but i'm inclined to put the threat of house bombs into the internet rumor category.

DC_Spd

05-19-2002, 09:08 AM

House bombs may not statistically be as serious but morally they could be extremely devastating. After all, your home is where you want to feel safe from crap like this.

TraffikD

05-19-2002, 10:42 AM

Good point Spd. If you aren't safe in your own home, are you safe anywhere?

Then again, look at the number of break ins, robberies, etc. that occur every day at peoples homes.

Justin Martin

05-19-2002, 02:02 PM

Perhaps, but then the dozen or so mail bombs that a nut dropped off recently didn't seem to faze too many people, 24/7 media coverage notwithstanding. Rational people will still realise that the odds are impossibly low, paranoids will find another reason to hide under the bed.

I donno, like I said, this just sounds like a unfounded rumor. There's a story on Yahoo now that doesn't list this as being one of the more credible stories, and indeed, it says there are alot of unfounded rumors floating around.

D_Man

05-19-2002, 03:22 PM

The main aim of terrorism is to cause terror. It is not so much about how much damage is done - more about causing people to feel threatened and unsafe. It is when and where they strike that is more critical. A car bomb here, a house bomb there, a train delrailed somewhere else - it all shakes people out of their sense of security and creates a certain helplessness not knowing when or where the next target will be.

It is very scary when you think what they could do.

Dave

AccadaccA

05-19-2002, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by IH8COPS
I think the general threat is very real, but i'm inclined to put the threat of house bombs into the internet rumor category. Hmm, it was on the news on a national TV channel. Not saying that this makes it gospel however it deserves more attention than the casual shrug-off.

I thought along the same lines as DC_Spd and D_Man. This is what I would call terror.

Maybe it's not al Quaeda, perhaps it's just the US government (again) setting up their next attack on themselves and the world economy. :rolleyes:

Either way I would be very concerned.

Thanks George W (& your band of gypsies), we now are spending all of our resorces on the country's security. At the cost of medical rebates for the aged and disabled.
In the Australian budget announced last week there wasn't any mention of education, the homeless, medical research, etc. Instead ALL taxes are going into defense. Geez, that's great reassuring when you have a sick child or aged family member.
But it's topped off when it's so clearly pointed out that the Sept 11 Pentagon distruction was staged by the US government. :rolleyes:

Wazza

05-19-2002, 04:29 PM

I hate the US.... but not the people.. only the government... cover-ups... lies.... deception... :rolleyes: &(

LuC!FeR

05-19-2002, 06:44 PM

Having lived with "IRA" attacks daily, when I was stationed in Northern Ireland, I always tend to take any threat seriously. I would not wish my worst enemy to live through what the Americans did on Sep 11 last year, but being a brit myself, I can sympathise with what you guys went through. We suffered that kind of crap longer than I have been alive. Never under estimate the enemy, you never know where they will strike next.

AccadaccA

05-19-2002, 07:01 PM

Geez that sounds so much like Spidey (Rob, Snail) that it's scary.

I'll just check the IP before I officially welcome you to our forms. ;)

LuC!FeR

05-19-2002, 07:22 PM

HAHAHA, I should take that as a complement... right :). Trust me. I am none of the above, but a hell of a first post LOL. You can thank Geezr for me being here at all, as I am an anti-social git who runs the (UK) Forums, that he loves to come and take the "P***" out of :). I regret my choice of PHPBB now though, this is sweet :)

Spiderman

05-19-2002, 08:19 PM

He sounds nothing like me Acca. I have a London accent and he probably hasn't )=)

Myshkin

05-19-2002, 10:08 PM

"it's so clearly pointed out that the Sept 11 Pentagon distruction was staged by the US government" -Acca

You really believe that Acca? Ah yes I see... the American people wouldn't have been pissed that the WTC towers got destroyed... but hey they hit the PENTAGON! OKAY NOW WE'RE MAD!!! :rolleyes: Personally I could see the Pentagon as a military target... however the WTC was clearly a terrorist strike.

Anyway this new supposed threat... we've been under this threat now for almost 9 months now. People might not acknowledge it or think about it all the time because nothing has been happening, but haven't we all known that this is not over? Perhaps some people expected more resistance, but direct confrontation has never been their plan... terrorism doesn't work like that.

So who knows? Might it be a plan by Dubya to create a fascist state? It's quite possible that certain elements in the US Gov't. are milking this for everything they can get. I think the media in this country is getting really stupid... all they are talking about now is what was known before 9/11... it's like right now, there is some vague threat and perhaps the people planning it are successful at hiding their plans... so it's the government's fault for not knowing everything? I for one don't trust the government to get things right. I hope others don't use this as a basis to create a real Big Brother.

Oh yeah and something else to keep in mind for all of you conspiracy theorists... the concept of checks and balances actually does work to some degree in the US. Between different branches of government, different political parties, and a press motivated to 'scoop' everyone else, to suggest that they all conspire together is... let's just say not realistic. Hidden powers behind the curtains pulling strings... okay, maybe.

So, Wazza, do you really hate all of the hundreds of thousands of people that work for the US government? &( Wow that's a lot of hate, hope it makes you feel better :Peace:

Myshkin

05-19-2002, 10:16 PM

By the way, for those of you that might not understand my comment to Wazza, I suggest you look up the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City and see what happens when you 'hate the US government' but not the people.

The majority, by far, of the US government workers are just normal people trying to do what they think is best according to the rules of the US Constitution. If you must hate, please reserve it for the few that actually pull the strings, the leaders both visible and hidden, the ones that may hold the truth and spin it to their own advantage... think about it... how many are there really?

Spiderman

05-20-2002, 05:58 AM

Personally I don't think the US Government set out to create 9/11 but I do think they have used it as an excuse to create a fear mentality in their own people both to cover up incompetence and to seek new powers for 'the security services'.

I think the word hate like a lot of words these days is over used and either means nothing at all or too much i.e " hate icecream but love lemonade"rather than "I don't like icecream but I do like lemonade)

The US Government (the top nobs) are definitely a scary bunch. I haven't seen so many shiny medals since the old Moscow regime were brought down to earth. They give me the creeps and even Colon Powel (the lefty hehe) doesn't make me feel better.

As for the 'free press' Mysh. Free in what sense? Because it is a well known fact that journalists are employees and write about what they have been ordered to write about or face the sack. The press is almost exclusively owned by the establishment and will not bite the hand that feeds it. Any journalists who step outside of the rules is a maverick or doesn't have a mortgage to pay or have to worry about truth. It would be nice if the free press really existed but it doesn't except in the minds of very optimistic sorts. Read some of what Michael Moore has to say on the subject or Chomsky. Chomsky has a hard time getting his views across to the mainstream because he 'is out of step with the times' hehe.

Mike Moore (http://www.michaelmoore.com/)

Chomsky (http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/chomsky.htm)

In short, the major media are corporations "selling" privileged audiences to other businesses... Media concentration is high, and increasing. Furthermore, those who occupy managerial positions in the media... belong to the same privileged elites, and might be expected to share the perceptions, aspirations, and attitudes of their associates, rejecting their own class interests as well. Journalists entering the system are unlikely to make their way unless they conform to these ideological pressures, generally by internalizing the values... Those who fail to conform will be weeded out...

-- Noam Chomsky

AccadaccA

05-20-2002, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Myshkin
"it's so clearly pointed out that the Sept 11 Pentagon distruction was staged by the US government" -Acca

You really believe that Acca? Ah yes I see... the American people wouldn't have been pissed that the WTC towers got destroyed... but hey they hit the PENTAGON! OKAY NOW WE'RE MAD!!! :rolleyes: Don't twist or add to my words, I never said anything about the WTC.
But open your eyes before your mouth and check out the U.S. Army photos of the incident.

Show me one photo of a piece of the plane that hit the Pentagon. There's US$1,000 up for grabs if anyone can see any piece of plane in any of the photos taken by the U.S. government.

The U.S. Army can't produce any. A plane supposedly that big (Boeing 757 I think), that heavy and travelling that fast only made a little hole to only the outer ring on the ground level yet never turned up the turf? :rolleyes:
A plane that big with a wingspan of about three to five times the width of the damage yet none of the U.S. army photos of it show any remains of the plane. Strange :confused:
Did you see a plane parked at the Pentagon on the news?... in the papers? ... know an actual eye witness of the encounter?
Funny that, nobody has, did or does. Not even the fire chief who was the first on the scene.
Geez they found many pieces of both of the smaller planes that went down with 100s of tonnes of rubble yet nothing of the big one parked on the ground. WTF??
And why cover the lawns in front of the site with truck loads of sand and gravel when earlier photos showed no sign of damage to the lawn? Funny time to start thinking of gardening wouldn't you agree? Two planes flew into the WTC, another supposedly into the Pentagon, yet officials there are saying something like "I think daffodils would look great right there. Yes I want a garden right here and now." And you swallowed that? Come on Mysh. :rolleyes:

Maybe you missed this link Wazza posted a month ago Click here (http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm)

But keep shoving that apple pie in your ears whilst being blindfolded by the stars and stripes and make out that by me telling it for what it really was that I have done or said something wrong just because it doesn't fit in with your pathet..oops, patriotic views.

Whoa, who needs terrorists?

jtace

05-20-2002, 09:05 AM

My response to that is what about the missing plane itself and the people who "dissapeared" then, if there was no plane that crashed into the pentagon? Surely the airline industry just makes up stories about plane crashes for thier health and profit.

Ok so I'm no expert, but for me the fact that I've not heard a peep of this "conspiracy" on the TV news or CNN which seem to take anything even remotely credible, and anything big like this would be big news I would think, tells me this is another one of those internet rumors.

Besides, does it really matter if the Pentagon was hit by a plane or a bomb or a missle? There is no doubt about the WTC.

Spiderman

05-20-2002, 09:20 AM

The new 'threat' is rather worrying. It is well known in certain circles that the two tenement blocks blown up in Moscow were actually done by the secret services so as to give Putin the powers he needed to take on the Russians' Al qaida the Chechens. I doubt the 'targets' would be regular houses but a similar setup to the 'Moscow job' in New York or some other big city. If the threat doesn't materialise I wonder if the US security services might just make it happen anyway.

On the Pentagon. I am sure I saw footage of a plane hitting the pentagon, taken from a garage or petrol station.

On the WTC. The indestructable passport is odd. It 'flew out of the 'chief hijackers' pocket somehow and landed a block or two away from the towers yet the 'indestructable' black boxes were destroyed. The USAF's excuses for not intercepting the planes or at least shadowing them is weak. Very weak. There are a lot of questions that the administration has ducked.

Maybe the shepherd who cries wolf too often needs to find a wolf or two...

Myshkin

05-20-2002, 09:57 AM

Hahaha Acca, yeah that's right my post was patriotic... errr it grows really green down there doesn't it? Meaning, what are you smoking? Yes, I saw the site that Wazza posted, and as we discussed at the time, just because someone has a crackpot theory doesn't mean it's true. The funny thing about this is that I haven't waved my flag at all... the only point of my post is that to fake the Pentagon crash would have been illogical. It doesn't make sense... and this has nothing to do with patriotism or blindly accepting what the media says.

So, my response Acca is that you are gullible for accepting that web site AS FACT. I looked at it and considered it, found myself wondering, but thought that it was a stupid conclusion that was presented. Like I said, and I am not twisting your words, to motivate the US population, nothing more needed to be done than the WTC attack... why would they fake a Pentagon attack? What would be the point? With all that was going on at that moment... I can't imagine even the pyscho-killers in the Pentagon doing that because it would be pointless.

My criticism of your comment was "it's so clearly pointed out that the Sept 11 Pentagon distruction was staged by the US government" is not clear at all, even though you saw it on a web site. I can point you to another web site that says that bin Laden is actually George Bush Sr.'s illegitimate love-child that he fathered with the sister of the last shah of Iran and it even gives you points of proof!!! :rolleyes:

Sorry for being skeptical... didn't realize that made me patriotic or pathetic. So, from now on I promise to believe all conspiracy theories so I can be as enlightened as you. :eek: News flash Acca: Read my post over and I was only being skeptical of the theory as being illogical, but I am not necessarily promoting the US version of events. Next time I suggest you actually read the words.

Rob, Michael Moore? This is the guy that claimed he was being censored because a publishing company didn't want to publish his book. Excuse me? So now if I wanted to print something and I'm famous, the publishing houses have to publish it or it's censorship?

Anyway, I laugh at you Rob (Spidey that is not Acca). When I say 'free press', and we have had this conversation before, means to me more 'freedom of expression, thought and the freedom to share those thoughts' not 'newspapers and/or magazines must print whatever anyone wants them to print and have no right to choose their own stories and viewpoints/spins on the truth'. Yes, it is sad that the media worldwide is mostly controlled by corporations that, of course, are going to support the status quo.

And all media (even the *gasp* 'Socialist Worker') presents news in such a way that their own viewpoint or goals are advanced. I've asked this before but you never answer me: Do you not think that any of your socialist rags spin the truth? Do they not present news in a way to further their own goals? Do you REALLY think their news is unbiased?

And the reason I laugh at you is because you bash my 'free press' comment and then go on to point out one of the most famous critics of government and corporations in the United States. Not only did they print his book but then he made the news crying about how they didn't want to print it and how the poor guy has been censored. I just found it amusingly ironic.

By the way, our discussion here would fall under "freedom of expression" and if you are going to argue that it doesn't actually exist... oh wait I get it, because I argue I'm repressing you all right? ^_^ Another highly ironic point is the origin of the Internet and that it could be considered part of the press.

Myshkin

05-20-2002, 10:15 AM

Follow this link to books about how the US has no free press (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060392452/ref%3D)

And tell me that it's not ironic. Make sure you look at the "if you liked this then you might like these" links.

Oh my God SpideyRob, thanks for the Chomsky link. "Links to books and audio and video about Chomsky" etc. etc. hahaha you were saying about no free press? If you are just referring to the large news organizations okay I agree they are corporate pigs that are looking out for their own interests.

Spiderman

05-20-2002, 10:20 AM

Mysh, if you knew the problems that the publishers threw in Mike Moores way to drop the book and the problems he has faced on his tours you would know something was amiss in 'The land of the free'. I don't need to defend Moore or Chomsky because they are pretty good at taking on all comers. They will not take the candy and be good for the sake of their bank balances.

The Socialist Worker is not unbiased. They don't claim to be so. They are for the workers and against the capitalists. They make that quite clear always, unlike the liberal or right wing who pretend to be unbiased. One thing I learned from a chap called Tony Cliff long ago was never lie to the workers. You can be biased and stick to the truth.

The Internet is not the press. There is a fundemental difference. There is more open debate right here than in all the press either here or on your side of the pond. Usually we all stick to our comfortable medias. here we have no choice but to read things that make us sit up, get angry or make us look at things from another perspective. I think the guardian is more independent than most print media here in Britain. That is because it is the only mainstream newspaper that is not owned by a big chief. It is a cooperative and has a constitution. It tries to toe the governmnet line but it also has to allow good journalists i.e those that believe in the ethics of journalism to write what they believe unedited. The editors do try to take the piss quite often by ignoring certain events but when caught out they do admit they were in the wrong. It is the only paper I have any time for in the mainstream.

State terrorists (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,247714,00.html)

Stupid white men (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4384298,00.html)

Justin Martin

05-20-2002, 10:38 AM

Acca, yes, Mysh already read that thread, indeed, myself, Mysh and several others basically invalidated the claims. You can catch up here - http://www.racerplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1605

Basically, the whole theory was based on this guy claiming that there should have been wreckage. WRONG! Only in cases that involve low speeds is there any wreckage left. This plane hit a building with 1 meter thick granite walls at a speed in excess of 250mph. It would have shattered on impact.

Don't believe me, look at the pics of the Airbus that crashed in NYC shortly after 9/11, very few large pieces left, yet it was going at least 75mph slower than the 757 that hit the Pentagon, and it hit the quite soft target of a residential neighborhood. (softer than ground, really)

I'll give you two more things to think about. One, I look at alot of pics of crashes, because being the son of a pilot, I tend to study crashes closely to try and learn what happened. The best way to avoid being in a crash is to figure out what caused other people to crash. I even saw a plane crash a few years ago at the Oshkosh fly-in. A F4U Corsair crashed less than 1000 feet from where I was standing. (the pilot survived)

The second thing i'll tell you is this, there is a man in town who's a very close friend of Dad and I. We've known him for a very long time, he's very, very trustworthy. He told me recently that his son-in-law saw the plane crash into the Pentagon.

Myshkin

05-20-2002, 10:49 AM

Michael Moore has been quite vocal about his troubles... and I do not doubt that there are people that want him to shut up. Look I am still not saying that this is a land of perfect freedom of expression. That land does not exist, nor will it ever. If the politics of the few are opposed the the politics of the many, the many will try to repress the few. No? Here's a suggestion: Go to one of your 'enlightened' rallies, hang out in the middle of the crowd and then start shouting pro-Blair/Bush views and see how long you live. Find the most 'enlightened' place or media in the world and try to promote an alternate viewpoint... and see how you get repressed. Not by all, but by that militant, idealistic few.

In the US, instead of 'many' and 'few' we can say 'powerful' and 'weak' in the political/social sense. The Internet has been a way that the traditionally 'weak' have gotten stronger.

I don't watch CNN or any network news really, not a fan of TV so that might be why you find me out-of-touch. I do sometimes watch the news on Univision which is a Spanish-language (corporate) network, which is interesting since they tend to have more of a pro-Hispanic stance, especially concerning politics, immigration and trade.

As far as where I would get my information... well from nowhere and from everywhere I guess. Take 9/11 and all... I've read stuff from just about everywhere except straight from the arabic horse's mouth (sorry I don't speak Arabic). I followed Wazza's link, and I consider that when I think about what happened. I take what you all write here... I visit the SW too... and CNN online... here there trying to get the clear picture. Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't see as clear a picture as Acca does... and I don't know if the haziness comes from the US or not, as there are others that benefit from the doubt.

Bias is a slant on the truth, but it also includes ignoring or holding back information that does not support your own views. Doesn't mean they have to lie, it just means they can omit details that would not support them and call those details irrelevant if they are called on it.

I am biased Rob. I know this, but I try not to be. Knowing that I am and trying not to be I hope helps me be less so, and I agree that the most biased seem to be people that claim they are unbiased. Does that make sense? :Peace:

Spiderman

05-20-2002, 12:15 PM

Oh yes, it makes sense. :Peace:

TraffikD

05-20-2002, 04:22 PM

There was a video on CNN or somewhere of a security camera with a film of a plane hitting the pentagon. Then again, it could be just the government altering media to cover their asses.

Don't you think that someone would have seen the plane? The pentagon is located near a rather big highway.

Myshkin

05-20-2002, 06:15 PM

Hey Acca, after a little more investigation, I found that the guy that is saying that the Pentagon attack was fake is also saying that the WTC attack was carried out by the US using remote-controlled planes. So, I guess all of the passengers that were supposedly on those planes are just fake too. According to him (Thierry Meyssan, frenchman) the whole thing was planned to be used as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. You can read all about it in his book L'Effroyable Imposture (The Horrifying Fraud) which happens to be the best selling book in France.

So, this is the source you believe, huh? Okay... just so we know what you're saying here.

Spiderman

05-20-2002, 06:54 PM

After an exaustive investigation I have found the source of the French book is really the US government itself. The evil bastards never give up...

French connection (http://www.btinternet.com/~vvp/frenchy.htm)

Myshkin

05-20-2002, 06:57 PM

^_^

Spiderman

05-20-2002, 07:09 PM

You may laugh American pig dog but you cannot hide. Soon I will reveal how the USAF has trained nuclear pidgeons to attack Paris... To subscribe to THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH send ten dollars to me @ MadRob's place, The sanctuary mental health farm, Wood Green, London N22. Remember to leave a forwarding address.

Myshkin

05-20-2002, 07:22 PM

Hey don't blame the Atomic Pigeon Poop Bomb on us, limey. Operation Nuke the Frog is Blair's plan... it's you Brits that have an ancient nit to pick with them, not us. I should e-mail V and tell her to watch her back, obviously you are part of Blair's attempt to defer suspicion.

Wazza

05-20-2002, 07:49 PM

hey, sorry Myshkin, but i didnt want to offend you or anyone....

as I don't live in USA, or anywhere near it.. i never hear of all the best things.. mostly all I get to see/hear is about the bad things that the US has caused... they are the worlds most powerful nation.. they give out help to poorer countries, and allies in need..... but then it can have its negative sides....

i dont know specifically on this, but I've often heard that even simple things such as exports from New Zealand to USA and vice versa has often had a bad impact on NZ.. so often on the news, we see biased stories where it makes USA look pure evil.. i know its not exactly that....

and then the coverups which I have heard.... it was sad to see over 3,000 people killed in the WTC attacks... and then i see that website about the possibility of the pentagon attack being a fake.... i dont know where to draw conclusions...

as before when i said i hate the us government.. i dont even understand or know about your political persons.. i dont even know what senators are or do... im under the queens rule, as NZ is a commonwealth country, so our governments only consist of a Prime minister, and 120 MPs.. or Member of Parliament.
The US appears to have a much larger system of working people to control all sectors... you must have thousands of people in different sectors or departments such as the CIA or FBI.. again I have no clue with this stuff......

USA does a fine job in the protection and trying to keep an equalness in all countries.. but im also wary of the USA having too much power... and what makes them in the right? and every other eastern country in the wrong?

and also i hear many people talking or rubbishing about the September 11 attacks... some have been such as pretending the al Quaeda group did it, in an excuse to blow them up... how about the USA killing thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan, just so they can kill a few important men.
Again, I hate theway how people have to retaliate..... i dont like war.. im glad NZ is a neutral country, and is very unlikely to be attacked by any place....

enough of my babbling...... my mate here is signing up for this forum... =[ .... ^_^ ......

Myshkin

05-20-2002, 08:37 PM

Wazzack, you didn't offend me, it just irks me sometimes when someone out of the blue says they 'hate' something without backing it up. You point out that you don't know much about the US government... go look here, US Gov't employment statistics (http://www.opm.gov/feddata/factbook/index.htm) and you will see that the government here is not made up of just the CIA, FBI and military. The Social Security Administration and the Internal Revenue Service are two large examples of government agencies that have nothing to do with killing people or imperialism... if you do some math you will find there are more people employed with domestic issues... if you don't include the military the difference is huge.

What you should ask yourself is 'Is the US Gov't truly evil in and of itself?' or might the US be, to use metaphors, the '800 pound gorilla' or the 'bull in a china shop'. To use the latter, might it be possible that the bull doesn't have evil intentions, but just because it's a big, powerful animal, if you were to let it loose in a china shop it would wreak havoc regardless of its intentions?

Rob likes to think it is ignorance combined with evil. I tend to think that there are evil influences perhaps but it is mostly a bull in a china shop. To believe that the US Gov't in mostly evil would require me to believe that 1% or so of the US population are evil devils that are working together to evil ends. Though I can't say I have a lot of faith in humans in general, I choose not to believe that.

budge

05-20-2002, 11:37 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Myshkin
Hahaha Acca, yeah that's right my post was patriotic... errr it grows really green down there doesn't it? Meaning, what are you smoking? Yes, I saw the site that Wazza posted, and as we discussed at the time, just because someone has a crackpot theory doesn't mean it's true. The funny thing about this is that I haven't waved my flag at all... the only point of my post is that to fake the Pentagon crash would have been illogical. It doesn't make sense... and this has nothing to do with patriotism or blindly accepting what the media says.

I'm really not sure if it doesn't make sense for the States to stage an attack on themselves. I'd love to think that this type of thing is unheard of in U.S. history but unfortunately is has proven to be commonplace. A documented strategy to evoke public support in order to justify military action on other nations was printed in the early sixties. This is not conspiracy theory stuff or internet ramblings it's genuine non-disputed history. I'm ripping through this post and don't have the time to find a decent link concerning Operation Northwood. I'm sure that a simple internet search will yield all the info you need.
How about another example that actually cost inocent americans their lives. I'm kinda curious if this stuff is taught in the United States classroom, I'm assuming that the die hard patriots have taken the time to learn about the U.S.S. Maine in 1898. Quick recap:

Long story short, U.S.S. Maine arrived in Cuba on a 'courtesy mission'... shortly afterward, the ship exploded, killing 260 of the American crew. Obviously, the spanish colony instantly became the centerpiece of American news and policy (sound familiar?)... nearly a hundred years later... sometime in the seventies (Ahhh so nice to be vague and not footnote) an american Admiral revealed that it was in fact U.S. specialists had planted the explosives in order to rally support against Cuba.... worked like a charm!!! This type of shit frigthens me. A nation that is capable and has been proved willing to perpertrate terrorism on themselves to further geostrategic advantage and aquire valuable resources through military means is a nation not necessarilly to hate, but most definately one to be wary of.

Something to think about anyways. Hmmmm how many americans were killed in the trade center bombings? Is it fair to say, that a larger percentage of the American population was murdered in 1898 than in the terrorist attacks of september 11th?

You can be sure that Dubya won't dispute the existance of Operation Northwood, but would never consider revealing an ugly truth about the trade center (if there is one of course)

ON the other hand, you could be sure that Nixon would have never disputed the revealed truth about the U.S.S. Maine, but would never consider revealing such operations such as Northwood. (Am I getting my timeline right here? Nixon= president in the early 70's?) :confused: I'm sure you get the point.

Don't get offended, I just can't help entertaining the possibility. As horrifying as it is, it is not unheard of.

Quick note about Chomsky... Spiderman, I'm assuming you are the same gent that used to go by the name of Zaydorph... From what I've read you seem to be a huge Chomsky fan. Me too, the guy is genius. However I've always considered his work (never read his linguistic stuff) as an attemp to create an extreme model to shed light on happenings that are existing in a not so extreme a context. If I take the guy completely literally I've got to say he often extrapolates lacking proof to bang home a point. Just another thought.

D_Man

05-20-2002, 11:58 PM

This discussion seems to have taken a 90 degree turn somewhere. I think the point is that we now have to acknowledge that if there are people with a grudge and enough resources they can create terror in communities once considered "safe havens". This undermines the confidence of the community as a whole and gives governments a mandate to take whatever measures are considered necessary. This usually translates to more powers for "security" agencies and more spending on "defence" (an ironic word methinks).

I believe that we are seeing the beginning of increased terrorist activity (or at least the publicising of it) and governments feeding on the inherent paranoia it engenders to pursue their own agendas - as already seen in Australia and the United States.

Dave

bogs

05-21-2002, 12:04 AM

well , let me start out by saying i usually avoid the fairly murky world of the conspiracy theorist and whether or not the news media is reporting actual fact or hair brained spin .
having said that , there is video footage of osama fairly well claiming responsibility for the above mentioned atrocities that is generally speaking accepted as the genuine article . ( generally speaking meaning by most nations not directly affiliated with keeping osama's well being their top priority )

AccadaccA

05-21-2002, 02:48 AM

Justin : The son-in-law of a creditable man does not mean he himself is as trustworthy. Even if it did make a difference he doesn't even carry the same genes. And trustworthy folks tend to easier believe (or not doubt) others.
I am not calling him a liar but dang with all those people in N.Y. city walking around armed with video cameras (switched on and pointed upwards aimed between all of the skyscrapers :rolleyes: happens every day I suppose) you would think at least one person would have captured the 757 sitting on the lawns of the Pentagon or enroute to it.
The hole in the big P was only the width of the cockpit so how did the rest of the plane disintegrate?
There is no sign of the wings even touching so how did the fuel ignite in such a way to completely remove all evidence of a friggin 757?
What about the roof tops of building across the road. Was there any other damage in the alleged 757's path?
So how many 757s just disappear on impact? Wouldn't such size and weight dig up the turf? You've studied many plane crashes so you must have seen similar situations with a tail or wing(s) of the aircraft sticking out of the impact site. If not large chunks of plane nearby.
You said the WTC planes were traveling slower and had a softer piont of impact. So if we look at their sizes, weight and speed in comparisment to the the alleged big P crasher, the thicker wall would compensate for the plane's mass would it not? If the Pentagon walls are so thick then why didn't the plane just crumple like a coke can (or car) and it's wings (fuselage) would have hit the walls leaving a distinct burn mark on the wall and lawn would they not? If the wings didn't hit how did they blow without trace? I bet you believe American movies where all cars explode no matter how hard or where the impact.
Geez, lucky no one was hurt in the Pentagon. All the more reason to suspect it as being staged.
Although there are unanswered questions of the WTC (yes the passport and blackbox) I am not accusing foul play there and never have.

Mysh : I already did read you post twice before replying the first time. I have always viewed the Sept 11 incidents with an open minded view. Perhaps that is harder to do when you live in the country concerned, but as a virtual neutral by stander I can only judge the proof I see unclouded by the pride of the nation.

So what if he is French, a member of the KKK or claims to be a bloody alien? The photos are untouched U.S.Army photos and I believe more of what I actually see than any dialogue that may accompany the scenes or the credibility of it's presenter. Ronald Regan was an actor, does that mean all that he controlled during his presidency was not real as he was only play-acting?

Yeah I may very well be naive but we only have the media as our source of what goes on there. My comments of your patriotism is that by reading your post I saw it as you saying "it must be true because our President said so". Again I will state that we only have the media & the likes of movies to judge but I have heard the star spankeled banner and pledging allegands to the flag soooooo many freaking times it is no wonder many countries outside of the US think you guys rank your Presidents (and nation) beyond mortality. And I rarely watch the "idiot box" (TV) so I can only imagine how much stronger others would feel.

Same as the poms with the royals. Maybe the yanks could look at the Brits to see what we all see of yourselves worshiping mere mortals to the degree of Gods. Speaking of Gods, the same goes for religious folk worshipping the Pope (and Gods they can't see).
Trust me their B.O. (body odor) and shit would stink just like yours and mine. Cut them and they bleed.

I suppose you guys would think our national anthem was the (Men AT Work) "Down under" song repeatedly played at the Sydney 2000 Olympics. News flash, it's not that. heh
Many Aussie schools sing our national anthem to the tune of Gillian's Island. Well those of them who would actually know the words to our national anthem. Be buggered if a tenth of our population do.
The Gillian's Island version is very funny and quite fitting when they do it right.

If the Australian equivalent (Prime Minister) toured these parts we'd all be calling him "a bloody wanker" to his face and nothing would come of it. Although (in the US or UK) you would be very lucky to get within 3 meters of any of 'em, but what would happen if you did that face to face with any U.S. Prez or U.K.royalty? So which is the real country of freedom of speech etc.?
The Australian PM tours without body guards and nobody would give two shits if he came visiting or not. Yet how many thousands line up just for a photo of the US Presidents plane? It's just another plane, Whoopee! ... and he is just another businessman doing a job to increase his finances, as they all are.
Don't take pride in the piece of dirt under your feet but in the good common folk do.

I am not showing a sign of disrespect for leadership, just saying that from what we see, many over do it.

Maybe that's why the US love our Steve Irwin (somebody has gotta), to the point of 16.8 million dollars in one year. We all think he is a total idiot the way he carries on, but he obviously fits in with the exaggerated mystical, magical, world of America. He's now making a movie over there. Please keep him. heh
Then many yanks would also see him as a fool, not for his excited way of talking but because he gave 16 odd million away even though he lives very modestly.
When I started the thread "Who wants to be a millionaire" I copied and pasted it a few days later. With the exception of one or two all American replies were greedy assuming the full 38 million (or more) where as all Aussies and the few other nations that replied were modestly focused on one million or less. But most Americans here wouldn't have noticed that.
Unfortunately that was saved to my other HDD but the thread should still be here at Total NFS if anyone cares to check what I am saying.

I do not hate Americans (I have many internet U.S. friends and far more acquaintances) but like Wazza many of us hate "America" from all we have seen and heard of it and if some of you guys weren't actually there you would see what we mean.
Your "Bull in a China shop" is a good point, we have that saying here too. But in times of war there is no need to rape woman and children. The "bloody yanks" even done that here in Australia. Some years ago I lived next-door to a woman who was raped by American soldiers and they also raped her retarded son. So "yes" I do believe that part in movies where they are portrayed as raping the enemy and any villages in their path.
Not saying ALL members of U.S forces did this but if it was only a one of encounter it would have been over-looked and not included to so many (U.S. made) war movies. Like they can't mention war without rape.
Unfortunately there is nothing you (the American voters) can do to correct such dislikes of your nation. And we honestly do not hold any of you guys responsible , that's proven by the way we get all along day-to-day in general. So please don't think of it as an attack on yourselves personally. There isn't any need to jump down anyone's throat (unless you're Bill Clinton :D ).

But getting back on track (for a little while :) ), what you are saying Mysh, is that the untouched U.S.Army photos lie because the U.S. Prez said it happened, so then it must be so.
Hmm, maybe I am not the only naive one here.
Clinton never had sex with Monica, just headjobs. ^_^ Move over Sienfeild.
The President wanted America to believe that he didn't have "sexual relations" with Monica so America believe it... until proven beyond doubt. Then playing dumb by pleading ignorance he covered his lies. Don't know about you guys but we all pissed ourselves laughing at that one. Yeah right, we're naive. ^_^

You might think this has nothing to do with the topic but I am only replying to your way of "logic" or "reasoning" using these examples to point out very large loop-holes (and naiveness) in being so damned patriotic.
I believe there wasn't a plane at the Pentagon until it is proven beyond doubt. That is being skeptical if anything Mysh, not naive.

Ease up on the Prez worshiping, America, they are all only human. Like big Bill giving it to Monica, all along I said "he's only human". He was deceitful to his wife just like the many thousands of humans that are every bloody day of the year. By lying to the nation he was then being deceitful to all America.

Wether all events on Sept 11 last year were fake or real it somehow boosted the American economy and lessened our own.
George doubya and the lads must have pissed themselves laughing at us sending money over with our earnest condolences while all the time they were doing an "American Pie" movie scene (had their dicks in the apple pie).
So to whoever was a part of it (WTC &/or Pentagon) we Australians owe them a good kick in the nuts. It financially effects all of us.

You asked of what point was there for the Pentagon attack. Well think about it before scoffing off at me. Attacking the Pentagon cements the need of another US economy boost...oops I mean, war. Unfortunately more so than the many lives lost in the WTC.
For as morbid as it may appear, killing people is only considered as an assault on citizens where as hitting the Pentagon (heaven forbid :rolleyes: ) is outright declaring WAR!! This is how the U.S. government think because this is the biggest slap in the face. Sad but true.

There are many tall building in N.Y. city (or many other parts of the U.S.) with far more people in them which make for easier targets for terrorist.
It's the same sort of tale we tell the insurance company when our car has been stolen "there was 200 latest audio CDs and bazillion dollar sound system and the most expensive brand sunglasses in the car at the time it was stolen".
Or if our house was robbed it seems to often include a Rembrandt or two, fine jewelery, silverware and china. Naturally "they took the Rolex watches too".
Although the initial attack may very well be true it does not mean all else that allegedly followed was.
There hasn't been conclusive evidence of any plane at the Pentagon, the fire chief (first on the scene) knows of no evidence, the U.S.Army photographs can't produce any evidence and the unhampered lawn being covered up soon afterwards all ads up to crap, bullshit and lies.
If this was a court hearing the proof of no plane at the Pentagon has been shown for that side of the case. Where is the evidence for your beliefs? Stuck in the middle of a warn apple pie?

As for the present threat of another, larger scaled, attack:
If it is an honest terrorist attack, I do sympathize. There isn't much that can be expected from the US Prez. You simply can't keep tabs of all newly leased or bought dwellings.
It has been said that they knew of the first attack in advance but unless they really did know of the whole plan we can't expect them to magically foresee where. when or how. Only the people directly involved can possibly know how much (if anything) was revealed prior to it happening.
And people can't live in constant fear day by day without seeing the terror on a daily basis like other countries do. This is what your taxes are for, paying the so called experts and or leaders to make the right decisions in precautions and tactical moves.
However, it shouldn't be shrugged-off so easily either. The view of "we are America, we are powerful, nobody would dare touch us" has been proven wrong too many times for you not to learn from it.

I wouldn't like to see it happen again and again. Sure being paranoid is one thing but turning a blind eye to such threats is not bravery, it's a sign of foolishness.

AccadaccA

05-21-2002, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by bogs
there is video footage of osama fairly well claiming responsibility for the above mentioned atrocities Just wondering if the U.S. ever hears of what frequantly happens in the U.K. ? The I.R.A. claim responsibility to so much while other terrorist or movements claim they did them.

Not that I, or any of us here, are experts on the subject but it is a usual trait of terrorists to make false claims. Something like the glory seeking serial killers... or even the wouldbe killers.

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 05:02 AM

If the right wingers in the administration were behind 9/11 then they are crazier than I thought. Not because I think they believe in the sanctity of human life (they don't) but because the chances of being found out at some point are high. Maybe they were secretely behind the scenes but did not expect the perpetrators to crash the planes. Maybe just a regular hijacking with a body thrown from the planes every other day. This way a new enemy to replace the Soviets that could be cultivated over a period of days live on TV on the tarmac of some airport. The hard boys could go in and 'take them out', we could bury the dead under pretty flags with sombre music before getting the fleet ready to take on Osama and his motley crew.

Since the Thatcher/Raygun era negociation with 'terrorists' has been a nono. So terrorists these days have to be of the completely suicidal variety rather than the let's do a trade variety like the secular, Middle East terrorists of the old days, the new breed think the old godless terrorists were a bit soft. In a way Thatcher and Raygun are to blame for 9/11. No negociation means 'why bother' to the other side. Today is a good day to die.

budge

05-21-2002, 06:41 AM

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

If anyone is interested, here's a link to the declassified 'Operation Northwoods'. I must say some pretty frightening stuff. Page 11 makes specific reference to repeating a 'Remember the Maine' incident. Of course making reference to the slaughter of 1898.

I realize that this is concerning the Cuban threat of the early 60's, and has little to do directly with the Middle East. It does however demonstrate a precedent to such policies.

This

link (http://www.tenc.net/images/north-int.htm) may also be interesting reading for some folks. The first link (in the article) leads you to a discussion about the trade centre attacks, and lends a curiosity as to the whereabouts of American air support following the first attack.

Edit* Just did a quick search on this Jared Israel character. Apprently an ardent conspiracy theorist. Wouldn't be suprised if the dude is hiding under his bed tuning into fm radio through his teeth fillings at this moment.

Hence, obviously the second link is rather biased, but I definately thought it was rather well written and sourced sufficiently as well. I ought to investigate some of those sources, feels a bit too much like school.
cya
-budge

jtace

05-21-2002, 07:22 AM

The hole in the big P was only the width of the cockpit so how did the rest of the plane disintegrate?
There is no sign of the wings even touching so how did the fuel ignite in such a way to completely remove all evidence of a friggin 757?
What about the roof tops of building across the road. Was there any other damage in the alleged 757's path?
So how many 757s just disappear on impact? Wouldn't such size and weight dig up the turf? You've studied many plane crashes so you must
have seen similar situations with a tail or wing(s) of the aircraft sticking out of the impact site. If not large chunks of plane nearby.
You said the WTC planes were traveling slower and had a softer piont of impact. So if we look at their sizes, weight and speed in
comparisment to the the alleged big P crasher, the thicker wall would compensate for the plane's mass would it not? If the Pentagon walls are
so thick then why didn't the plane just crumple like a coke can (or car) and it's wings (fuselage) would have hit the walls leaving a distinct burn
mark on the wall and lawn would they not? If the wings didn't hit how did they blow without trace? I bet you believe American movies where
all cars explode no matter how hard or where the impact.
Geez, lucky no one was hurt in the Pentagon. All the more reason to suspect it as being staged.
Although there are unanswered questions of the WTC (yes the passport and blackbox) I am not accusing foul play there and never have.

Sorry Acca, but I gota say you're way off base here with the Pentagon thing. You've seen the races where the cars crash and the body work shatters and flies into a million pieces? Well the planes are a big piece of body work really, they're made to undergo only certain types of forces required for flight. 350 MPH to 0 MPH in what maybe one second? even if it's five secs that's a HUGE amount of nearly instantaneous force on the plane and that combined with the explosion probably disintegrated the majority of the plane.

I remember hearing reporters talk to some of the people in the offices nearby the crash impact talking about how all of a sudden one wall of thier office was gone. While I have know idea about the casualties at the pentagon intself, what about the plane! That aircraft had people on board. You want to go talk to thier families and tell them that thier loved ones never really existed, that the plane they were on never crashed?

So what if he is French, a member of the KKK or claims to be a bloody alien? The photos are untouched U.S.Army photos and I believe more
of what I actually see than any dialogue that may accompany the scenes or the credibility of it's presenter. Ronald Regan was an actor, does
that mean all that he controlled during his presidency was not real as he was only play-acting?

I would say his background goes to understanding his motive for creating such a website. Obviously if he's purporting that it all was a fake then he is deluded and I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. As far as his "evidence", people will see what they want to see. I looked at the site and saw a few oddities but I didn't come anywhere close to the conclusion he did. Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see, but his proof was nonexistant in my eyes and I'm gona side with the families of those who died on the plane in this one.

Speaking of Gods, the same goes for religious folk worshipping the Pope

(trying to not get all religous and such in this reply) I myself am catholic and we don't worship the Pope, he's human like the rest of us, just one who has been able to divest of the distractions and trappings of life, and who attempts to lead us down a better path. :)

I also don't understand how people can hate America but not us Americans. Don't you see we americans are america? Our leadership is as flawed as anyone else's, but we do our best with what we have.

Anyways, I gota shut up now and get back to work... :D

:Peace:

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 07:47 AM

There is a difference between the people and the government Josh. For a start less than half of those entitled to vote did so. and less than half of those that voted voted for the present government. At most 20% voted for this administration from the entire population. If this adiministration commits crimes (which in the opinion of many it has) then I for one will not tar you or my other American friends with the same brush. If you voted for and support Bush and co and declare that publicly then it is a different matter. If you did that I would not necessarily hate you I might just think you were misled and give you the benefit of the doubt. As for opinion polls I don't believe them by and large. It depends on not only the questions asked but how they are phrased and what alternative answers are available. i.e Do you favour a.Bush or b.Castro? Most Americans are primed to answer a. not b.

Government employees are not the government. They are civil servants by and large. Again there is a difference.

racecar1

05-21-2002, 08:25 AM

Dave's right, this discussion has taken more turns than MC3 BW :look: ^_^

So why not, here's another hairpin coming up, can't help myself but Cuba was mentioned several times....

Viewing it from living outside the US, this latest Bush political thing with Cuba is just too much, and too obvious.
Its even misguided in terms of vote getting, as he is bound to lose 10X the votes elsewhere that he is trying to get in south Florida.

Lets add it up. His brother is going up against Janet Reno for election soon in Florida. And Bush himself nearly lost the election because of Florida. Carter (a former Democrat President) visits Cuba.

Now, Bush says trade with Cuba can't help the Cuban people. And he will make sure to veto any trade proposals (power move!!! gee the world is really impressed....lol)

At the same time, the US promotes approval of a list of thousands of new items which can be traded into Iraq for heavens sake. How many bananas can Castro eat at one time, how many cars can he drive simultaneously?

Bush proposes/imposes a structure in Cuba, in order to consider opening things up, which far exceeds what currently exists in Countries which are his new found 'friends'.

Murder our troops in Afganastan that are there to help, boo our National anthem at hockey games? Are we still going to help? Good question, probably, because its a good cause. But like at work when you find yourself having to deal with an arrogant boss, it will be more and more lip service. The words will fit but the actions will dwindle, essentially you will be on your own.

Now, forget world opinion caused by Bush's actions. How is it possible Bush could lose 10X the votes in the US that he gains in south Florida?

A combination of; lost business opportunities and profits from this trade, the obvious political appearance of this, the continuing loss of freedom for Americans to travel there, and the loss of tourism revenue from the rest of the world (ironically, this will mostly be felt in Florida).

On the last point, I can winter vacation in a 4+ star luxury hotel with one of the best beaches in the world, served by some of the nicest people you will ever meet, for less than staying in an old mildew infested motel with no beach in the Florida Keys, 100 miles away. A hotel in Cuba like this which is part of the Sandals chain (there are lots similar, some even better):

http://www.beachesvaradero.com/index.html

If Americans were allowed to vacation there, the prices would surely double. So there is a silver lining around the cloud, for me, not the American economy!
:HB:

jtace

05-21-2002, 08:32 AM

Well I did vote for Bush personally. He's not perfect, I would have prefered Powell to run personally but that's a different story. I voted for Bush because I felt he was better then the alternative, Al Gore. As I said when it was discussed during elections, Gore or anyone closely tied to Clinton's presidency are seen as tainted by myself. Let's just say I think Clinton is a jerk, to keep it clean. :D

While it's true there is a difference between the government and the people, the people that care about things outside thier own lives voted. So I would say the majority of the people who care supported Bush's administration, at least enough to say he was the best of what was availible. I would say the people have a responsibility to be the government. Maybe idealistic, but there is always someway to participate and have your say. If the 90% of the population cared instead of 50% then there would be less chance of power mongers and idiots getting into power and more chance of the government being run by the people and for the people.

So I guess my point is americans make up america, we're human like everyone else, we just happen to be big enough that everything we do is magnified several times. So just because a small number of people did some horrible things, doesn't mean we are all like that.

ok, ok I'm going... work is calling.. :)

05-21-2002, 08:39 AM

Personally, I think Mr Castro could be a co-operative leader.. I think perhaps the best way to deal with Castro, if I were George W. would be to probably stop the sanctions against Cuba, and try dealing with him through peaceful negotiations..

But, of course, I'd have to remember that doing this would lose me heaps of votes, so, I can't do that.. Oh, in fact, yes I can, and then I can just use the hopelessly flawed voting system to win again..

Yeah, that last US election still smells.. Badly.. If America was truly serious about Democracy, then every last one of those votes would have been counted, instead of one group fighting so bitterly to stop them being counted, because there may be a chance that it would lose if they were.. (Well, actually, I think if they were counted, the democratic candidate would have one).

Americans, it is your right to stand up, to have your vote counted!

The moment you start to let politicians think that they can scam their way into government through loopholes and other less than reputable methods, you'll see your democratic rights diminish away to nothing..

Now, to my thoughts on Former President Clinton..I think that he did do a decent job running America whilst in power, with no major stuff-ups.. He's only guilty of what was obviously a witch hunt.. I say that a persons private life should remain private.. It is nobody elses business to start prying into someone elses private life.. Certainly, if I caught someone trying to spy on my private life, well, let's just say they wouldn't have much of a life left..

Yes, I'm fiercely defensive of my privacy.

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 08:41 AM

It is not that people don't care about elections Josh. It is more to do with people seeing no difference in what the ruling parties have on offer. This is more true in America than anywhere else but it seems a universal truth. The alternatives to the two big parties have not got the resources to compete and people who may be tempted to the ballot box to vote for anyone else are informed by the media that it is a wasted vote (nice of them). So most people do care they just see no sollution or point in a protest vote and stay away from the polls. This is something that is happening all over not just the USA.

I don't blame the German people fot the Nazi's either. The majority had nothing to do with what happened in germany. The Japanese had nothing to do with Pearl harbour or the Chinese invasion. Given a vote the Germans would have voted no to war and so would the japanese. I do have faith in people.

Agreed Chris. Private relations are private. We Anglo saxon countries seem to have a real problem with sex. It is just another rocky pillar that is holding up the corrupt system. It is a pillar that needs a good kick.

05-21-2002, 08:53 AM

If Germany knew Hitler's plans/ideas fully.. It would not have allowed him to force his way into leadership..

That horrid, despicable creature fooled (and killed) many good young German kids with his mad plans.. Because of his crazy plans, many otherwise decent young kids who where pushed into the Hitler youth movement ended up having to fight a war which pretty much many of them wouldn't otherwise have wanted to fight..

Damn Adolf Hitler.. Him and all of his supporters deserve to rot in hell..

(It's not a good idea to get me started on this particular topic.. I feel very strongly about it).

jtace

05-21-2002, 09:24 AM

While I agree private life should be private, Clintons problem was he got caught and then lied about it. Being a public official really privacy is relative, if not nonexistant, but then I would like to think our leaders are someone to look up to, politically and morally. Since Clinton got impeached there was obviously some problems with his term in office, and it was his doing. If he could have controlled himself while in office, or at least told the truth under oath, I would probably hold him in a different light then I do right now.

I'm off to lunch now, cheers guys. :beer:

jtace

05-21-2002, 10:18 AM

Citing government officials, the Times said neither official briefed president George W. Bush (news - web sites) about the memo from the FBI in Phoenix in July. It warned that Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s followers could be training at American flight schools.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20020521/ts_nm/crime_usa_memo_dc_3

Interesting report on yahoo news here. Sounds like someone in the FBI slipped up or something.

jtace

05-21-2002, 10:22 AM

http://www.cnn.com has more recent info up on that story. I don't think the memo made it up the chain of command very far from the looks of it so far..

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 10:46 AM

Lying is something Bush must be good at too as he has been involved in all kinds of dirty deals for years in business and politics. True he hasn't been put under cross examination in public, but it is only a matter of time...

:beer:

Justin Martin

05-21-2002, 11:23 AM

Justin Martin

05-21-2002, 11:36 AM

As for the Cuba debate, someone on this board in a similar debate over a year ago, perhaps Mysh, summed up my opinion perfectly; "The best way to topple communism in Cuba is to give 'em a good strong dose of capitalism. Open up the boarders, let the rich American tourists visit Cuba, and the Cubans will revolt quickly against Castro's oppressive government." Not an exact quote, but close enough. ;)

Think of it this way, we buy billions of dollars worth of cheap shit toys from China sweatshops, a country that quite possibly has nukes aimed at us right now, or would if they had a ICBM with enough range, depending on who you ask, yet we don't even allow American tourists to go directly to Cuba, a country whose army is so weak that if they tried to invade the US (which they wouldn't) they would probably be driven out of Florida the next day, and Cuba would become the 51st state in a week. ^_^

Carter's the only Prez we've ever had who had any sense on Cuba, Clinton snubbed Castro big time during his first term when all the North and South American political leaders came together for a conference in NYC. Refused to even look at, acknowledge or shake hands with the guy.

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 12:11 PM

I think most Cubans wouldn't mind tourists and trade with uncle Sam as long as they could keep the good things they have managed to build like health care and education for all and as long as the infrastructure of the country wasn't signed away again to the highest bidder abroad.

edit:
Castro and his cronies are not my flavour of the month either to be honest. They too are guilty of huge crimes against their own people. But like the USA and most countries there are also good things to be celebrated like those I mentioned above. In my youth I was influenced by Guevara and the whole experience of peasant revolution. Some good things came from it and some bad things came from it but I think most people involved in it at the time did what they did with the best of intentions. The opposition were not exactly open to negociation so really there was no other way. At least not other ways that were a real possibility.

Myshkin

05-21-2002, 01:35 PM

Acca - Show me one single quote from me that says that I believe what the US government says. Do you infer that because I don't believe Frenchy's pile of BS? Who believed Clinton's lies? It seemed pretty much nobody believed him, the argument was about whether it was relevant to his job. If he'd have just said "You know what? I screwed up (no pu intended) and 'that woman' gave me a knob job in the oval office" and it might have blown (no pun intended) over a lot quicker.

So here we go again, since it seems everyone and their mother did not understand what I was saying:

The same person that put up the pictures and explanations that there was no plane at the Pentagon is also claiming that the WTC attak was carried out by the US using remote controlled planes. It was almost irrelevant that he is French (if he were, say, from al Qaida wouldn't you say it would be even less believable?) but what is more important is that his whole theory is one big conspiracy theory... I was questioning his credibility because of the WTC theory. And YOU, Acca, claim that it is CLEAR that there was no Pentagon plane because there was no one filming that exact area at the time of impact except some parking camera that was too slow to see anything.

It's like the people that claim that the US was full aware of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened... they could have gone on alert 15 minutes before the attack and saved a lot of lives, ships and military equipment... and still have an attack on the United States which would have propelled us into war. If they would have lost half of what they did, it would still have been war. Why would any sane person knowingly cut off their own arm when they might just lose a finger?

Well, here's a suggestion. You can go find the list of the passengers that were on the plane that hit the Pentagon. It is out there. So go ahead and call up each of the families and argue with them that their dead relatives don't exist and they weren't actually on the plane. Go ahead and call them liars on the payroll of the CIA. A note of warning: I don't care how tough you think you are, our gun laws are a little loose so I suggest you arm yourself or you probably won't live.

While you are at it, find the list of the people that were inside the Pentagon that were killed and go insult their families too. And the eyewitnesses that saw the plane flying low over Washington... yes there were eyewitnesses but out of all the evidence, those would be the easiest to buy.

Next point: My disbelief that the government would fake the Pentagon attack has nothing to do with the morality of it. My point was more along the lines of what Spidey said... look this happened, what, an hour after the WTC attack? So you are saying that in the space of an hour they planned this, carried it out and no one balked that would have had to know about it? In all the panic of that morning, I don't think anyone could possibly have planned a fake Pentagon attack... and this is an important point... unless they knew about the WTC attack beforehand!!! So what I am saying is you can't believe half of this story. Either you believe that all attacks were carried out by whatever group was responsible, or you think the whole thing was fake.

Another point to consider: Who the hell said that the US economy has gotten stronger compared to pre-9/11? What the hell are you smoking? Do you realize what an economic loss the WTC attack alone was, not even including the repercussions that we are still feeling? I still am in disbelief about this one... I don't even want to look at who wrote that *cough* Acca *cough*.

Next point: I'm not a Bush fan, I don't really pay attention to what he says and I don't really believe anything any politician says in public. I don't think he's evil and I don't like a lot of his ideas and that's about it. I oppose the embargo on Cuba, I think Castro is worse than Bush (remember, Bush can be considered short-term and Castro has been around 40+ years and is setting up his brother to take over when he is gone). Whatever you think of Bush, if you don't see that Castro is on another level (though not quite the extreme of Saddam, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin) then I suggest you go to Cuba. There are several flights a day leaving from Cancun, Mexico... so go to Cancun for a vacation and hop on over. A suggestion: take your own food unless you are planning on leaving Havana and buying on the black market. I know many people that have gone to Cuba as tourists... they are Mexican males so forgive them, but they say the only reason they go there are the parties and prostitutes.

Next point: Errr the Pentagon is not a tourist destination in Washington DC. I've only seen one video that clearly shows the first WTC plane... and as Justin points out, one hour after the WTC attack, who would be touring the unused side of the Pentagon?

As far as believing what you see Acca, you can't always believe it can you? Video editing, photo touch-ups, magic... what about that one picture with the guy on top of the WTC with the plane approaching in the background? Did you believe that because you saw it? Oh, what if they say underneath the photo "This photo is raw and untouched" :rolleyes: does that make it so?

Since you seem to have missed it in my earlier posts... I don't think we know the whole story about what happened pre- and post-9/11. The attacks are consistent with the MO of Islamic extremists tactics, but I do not rule out the possibility that it could be another group trying to cast the blame on those groups by copying their tactics.

If you go back to October I was posting that I opposed the US attack on Afghanistan. I am uneasy about our continued presence there. I would not support an attack on Iraq, although I am opposed completely to Saddam Hussein. Many of the powers requested by the executive branch of the US make me uneasy and it saddens me that it is happening.

Oh, and something else to chew on: People who talk about how the US knew about the impending attacks last year but failed to follow up or whatever: Right now they are saying that suicide bombers and building bombs are quite possible... and what can we do about it? With all that has happened, we are pretty much helpless to prevent it.. maybe minimize but prevent?... no. Now imagine one year ago if they had said "We need to clamp down on airport security because we have some vague information about a possible hijacking attack" sheesh people have you flown lately? So many people are bitching about everything they have done AFTER 9/11!!!! Think about what the reaction would have been before 9/11!

Acca, you are not being skeptical here, you are swallowing a bunch of BS. I personally was not at the Pentagon that morning so I can't be 100% sure that there was a plane, but then again I haven't been to NY City since 9/11 so I am also taking the fact that the WTC no longer exists on faith as well. You say you aren't questioning the WTC attack but you are. There was an hour difference remember.

And if you read what I've written again, you might see that I agree that there seem to be some holes in the proof, as there will always be. My biggest nit to pick with you was your statement that it was CLEAR that there was no Pentagon plane!! And I say again, it is not clear at all one way or another, but the evidence I have seen and common sense lead me to believe there was a plane, Frogman's proof notwithstanding.

As far as you hating the United States, it does not surprise me at all. Kind of like some Afghans probably hate Australia because some Australian soldier killed their brother. Or how some Argentinians hate Great Britain because of the Falkland Islands/Islas Malvinas war. Or how some African-Americans hate people with white skin because of slavery. Or how some Mexicans hate Spain because of the genocide of the conquistadores. Or how some Estonians ( :) ) hate Russia because of the Soviet invasion of Estonia. Or how some Spaniards hate arabs because of the Ottoman invasion. Need I continue? Now you think your hate is justified... I say it isn't. You can say that you hate individuals and that you hate actions and I probably won't say a word. To say that you hate a nation is another thing... government... civil servants... are pretty much just like the rest of us. The biggest difference is that they are the brain of 'bull in the china shop' and we are only the body.

I don't hate Iraq, I don't hate Iran, I don't hate Russia nor the Soviet Union. I don't hate Afghanistan, I don't hate Libya, I don't hate Cuba, I don't hate China, I don't hate Syria, I don't hate North Korea nor Vietnam. I am in strong disagreement with some of their governments and I dislike many of their leaders, but I can honestly say I don't hate any of them. You hate the Unites States of America. Congratulations on your hate, I hope it makes you feel good, like a rebel.

I keep imagining Spain from the days of the Roman Empire... how they 'hated' Rome. It's always the same I guess, same game different names.

I have to go back to work now, sorry if I did not answer something completely. :Peace:

[Edited to correct some typos and add a line or two, subtract a line or two... but I'm a moderator so it doesn't show edits]

Myshkin

05-21-2002, 02:03 PM

Part II, just in case you can't find it Acca, here's the list of the passengers. Do I need to find a link to the memorials to them so you can investigate further?

American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.

CREW

Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He is survived by a wife, a daughter and a grandson. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot.

David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight. "He was handsome and happy and very centered," his neighbor Travis White, told The Washington Post. "His life was the kind of life I wanted to have some day."

Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. She left behind a husband, a pilot, and a daughter and son.

Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis.

Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis.

Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.

PASSENGERS

Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the surgeon general to address racial and ethnic disparities in health. A 1995 graduate of Marshall University School of Medicine, Ambrose last year was named the Luther Terry Fellow of the Association of Teachers of Preventative Medicine.

Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.

M.J. Booth

Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc.

William Caswell

Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington. Asia was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington. He was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Eddie Dillard

Charles Droz

Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas.

Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp., a software engineering firm. He worked on data systems for NASA and also developed data systems for the study of global and regional environmental issues. Falkenburg was traveling with his wife, Leslie Whittingham, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3.

Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington. He was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. A Mississippi native, he joined the society in 1987. "Joe Feguson's final hours at the Geographic reveal the depth of his commitment to one of the things he really loved," said John Fahey Jr., the society's president. "Joe was here at the office until late Monday evening preparing for this trip. It was his goal to make this trip perfect in every way."

Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot.

Dee Flagg

Richard Gabriel

Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.

Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.

Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department.

Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc., a wireless data and messaging company.

Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society. She was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. Society President John Fahey Jr. said one of his fondest memories of Judge is a voice mail she and a colleague once left him while they were rafting the Monkey River in Belize. "This was quintessential Ann -- living life to the fullest and wanting to share it with others," he said.

Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California.

Yvonne Kennedy

Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager.

Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding. She joined the firm in 1993 and was part of the its telecommunications practice. She was married to Peter Batacan.

Norma Langsteuerle

Dong Lee

Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, was the associate director of clinical research for a biotech firm.

Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits, a consultation and referral service. He was married and had two children. Newton was on his way back to Orange County to retrieve his family's yellow Labrador, who had been left behind until they could settle into their new home in Arlington, Virginia.

Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday. She worked as an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s and later worked on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles.

Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.

Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.

Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm. She was from Great Falls, Virginia, and was married to Stephen Push. She worked with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on developing a new policy governing cellular therapies, announced in 1997. She also worked on other major health-care legislation.

Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer.

John Sammartino

Diane Simmons

George Simmons

Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California at Santa Barbara. She had just gotten the post August 31 and was making the trip to California to start work.

Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.

Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.

Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland. The professor of public policy at Georgetown University in Washington was traveling with her husband, Charles Falkenberg, 45, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. They were traveling to Los Angeles to catch a connection to Australia. Whittington had been named a visiting fellow at Australian National University in Canberra.

John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.

Vicki Yancey

Shuyin Yang

Yuguag Zheng

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

No, this is not proof in and of itself, but it is a starting point. Incidentally this is a regular AA flight, not some phantom flight out of nowhere. If there was no flight or the real flight was shot down or whatever, your conspiracy is going to need to be a lot bigger than the prats at the Pentagon.

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 02:12 PM

Well said Mysh. This is not a subject to be taken lightly.

Acca, I can see how this type of thing appears to make sense mate. But really unless they come up with something a little more substantial than what I have seen, (OK I don't look too closely at conspiracy theories in general) then maybe a little bit of thought to how people who lost loved ones would feel is appropriate. I don't want to put you down or slap your wrists but only try to stop this degenerating into something not worthy of the group. Let's all sleep on it?

edit: Well that list kind of makes the theory a dodo.

edit 2: Planes don't need to crash with the wings horizontal. They can crash with them vertical and cartwheel into the ground. The width theory is crap really.

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by budge

Quick note about Chomsky... Spiderman, I'm assuming you are the same gent that used to go by the name of Zaydorph... From what I've read you seem to be a huge Chomsky fan. Me too, the guy is genius. However I've always considered his work (never read his linguistic stuff) as an attemp to create an extreme model to shed light on happenings that are existing in a not so extreme a context. If I take the guy completely literally I've got to say he often extrapolates lacking proof to bang home a point. Just another thought.

Sorry Budge I completely forgot to answer this. Yes I think Chomsky speaks a lot of sense. Extrapolating a theory to bang home a point is probably OK in most cases. When it is dealing with issues of [recent] mass death, I think Chomsky would rather lose an argument than use that kind of material to win. Good point though.

Yes, I was Zaydorph. How could you tell? ;)

budge

05-21-2002, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by IH8COPS
As for the Cuba debate, someone on this board in a similar debate over a year ago, perhaps Mysh, summed up my opinion perfectly; "The best way to topple communism in Cuba is to give 'em a good strong dose of capitalism. Open up the boarders, let the rich American tourists visit Cuba, and the Cubans will revolt quickly against Castro's oppressive government." Not an exact quote, but close enough. ;)

Think of it this way, we buy billions of dollars worth of cheap shit toys from China sweatshops, a country that quite possibly has nukes aimed at us right now, or would if they had a ICBM with enough range, depending on who you ask, yet we don't even allow American tourists to go directly to Cuba, a country whose army is so weak that if they tried to invade the US (which they wouldn't) they would probably be driven out of Florida the next day, and Cuba would become the 51st state in a week. ^_^

Topple communism!!!?!?!?!?!?!?! Exploit the Cuban people because they are less powerful than China? Topple Communism!?!?!?!?!? sorry I'm repeating myself, it's 2002 dude, I don't think anybody considers the communist threat as a priority in their agenda. Communism ain't evil, I could have sworn that Americans had caught on to that a while back.

Topple communism!??!?!?!? Who did you vote for last election? Kennedy?

budge

05-21-2002, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by IH8COPS
yet we don't even allow American tourists to go directly to Cuba, a country whose army is so weak that if they tried to invade the US (which they wouldn't) they would probably be driven out of Florida the next day, and Cuba would become the 51st state in a week. ^_^

That chuckle at the end of this quote leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Don't forget that the Cuban people have managed, through all the American blockades, sanctions, threats and treachery to remain better educated than the American people.

Something tells me that if Cuba can handle themselves in the face of such adversity they will in fact be the one's having the last laugh at their pesky neighboursto the north^_^. How many attempts at Castro's life? How many operations to topple the castro regime? Operation Mongoose an utter disaster and embarassment to the United States have left me believing that I don't suspect that Cuba will ever be a week away from being the 51st state. Shit ...America has been trying to swallow them for forty years and haven't been able to pull it off. Not a big Castro fan here, but he ain't fighting any less dirty than his opponents.

Justin Martin

05-21-2002, 05:30 PM

Budge, you took my comments completely out of context and turned them around to use them to slap me in the face, shame on you. This may be the internet, but you could show a bit of respect.

I don't think communism is a "threat", as long as it's not my country. Communism sucks, and doesn't work, i'll leave it at that, so I don't want to live in a communist country. I know you're going to say i've been fed by capitalist BS, that I don't know what communism is, well, maybe so, but I still don't want communism. The only sucessfull communist country is China, and they are in the middle of free market reforms. That should say enough right there, not to mention the fact that China's human rights record, and that of every other communist country that I can think of, is appaling.

If the people of Cuba choose communism, that's their business. But they didn't, or at least not the current generation, who are basically not allowed to decide for themselves. If we were to open the boarders up, then the people of Cuba would be able to see what capitalism is like, and be able to make an educated decision on their own, and maybe, they would force the issue with Castro to have real elections, where the people could decide on their own what kind of government they want. And let the chips fall where they may.

And no, I wouldn't have voted for Kennedy. As for my one week comment, it was a joke, obviously you need to lighten up alot. Plus I might add that all US "invasions" of Cuba have been CIA, not the full scale military invasion that a response to a Cuban attack on the US would be. But before you jump on me for that, IT WAS A JOKE, DAMNIT. ^_^ So laugh, if you can. I DO NOT agree with any attempt at a forced overthrow of Castro.

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by budge

Not a big Castro fan here, but he ain't fighting any less dirty than his opponents.

Good point Budge. In the fight for survival the going gets rough. The Cuban people paid the penalty for their impudence. They still managed to build good things despite the setbacks. Given a fair chance then their people can join the modern world club. Yes prostitution and things like that exist, but not on the scale it would have done had they been illiterate and at the mercy of the markets. A lot of doctors and teachers and other educated people now have a chance if certain countries would forget the past. The problem is that the Cubans have been an inspiration to a lot of poor people in Latin America and the North is pissed off about that.

edit: Castro cleared his prisons of a lot of mafia types way back and sent them to America. America was not happy about that. If the people of Cuba all decided to go to America tomorrow then I think the Americans would soon change their tune and come up with excuses why they couldn't come. It won't happen. Most people don't leave their country for money. The ones that do should be waved cheerfully off by their country men and women. Byeeee

p.s China is not a communist country. It is a state capitalist country. So is Cuba. They compete with free market capitalist countries in industry, warfare and every other fare. The workers have no control over the economy their jobs or their lives. In which case it is not communist. It didn't even go through a socialist period. No they jumped from feudalism to communism in one fell swoop. No, it isn't possible. We may get to communism one day maybe in a hundred years but it hasn't existed yet except as a label for the bad guys.

budge

05-21-2002, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by IH8COPS
"... let the rich American tourists visit Cuba, and the Cubans will revolt quickly against Castro's oppressive government." .

Sorry about not summing this up in a single post,
'The Rich American Tourists' already had a crack at Cuba, this is precisely what led to the rise of the Castro regime.

They purchased over ninety percent of the economy, supported the undeniably corrupt government of Fulgencia Batista, exploited the population, did not contribute or redistribute money into the economyin order to allow it to grow and ultimately led to the popular support of Fidel Castro. Who put Batista in power?.. this is declassified bonafied history... you guessed it.. The United States.

,Fidel Castro offered to purchase the American bussinesses at their 'supposed' market value. This value turned out to be substantially lower than the actual value of the foreign businesses. Why???? Well obviously to dodge the cuban tax that Batista claimed he was charging them. How??? American bribes to their imposed puppet dictator. obviously the businesses scoffed at the asking price that they essentially had set themselves and cried war when Castro expropriated their property in a last ditch effort to save a suffering people.

We know the rest... Bay of Pigs etc... never looking very pretty for the States. When it comes to Cuba, I have little sympathy for the American administration or cash community.

You think Cuba has troubles with Castro in power, read a bit about it's former dictators. Ugly stuff, however, these were the one's that the American's enjoyed trade with. Supported whole heartedly as a matter of fact.

Americans are not looking for a capitalist democratic leader in Cuba, they are interested in an agreeable cooperative dictator. That has always been their agenda, I don't doubt it still is. I'll believe otherwise when I see it. They have set a precedent as to their policy and I can't help but to assume that it is consistent to date. I do hope to see them prove me wrong.

I don't meant to be abrassive, and yeah I definately have a sense of humour. Sorry if I come off a little strong on the Cuba issue, it hits pretty close to home in many ways. I'm enjoying the discussion, just don't find the 51st state jokes very funny. Don't mean to jump down your throat. Loads of respect to you and your ideas, just can't help but to question them.

Spiderman, I hear ya when you speak of China being a far cry from anyting resembling communism, Russia never even came close. No revolution, not sure if there ever could be one really. I don't know if it is really possible, I'd love to think of myself as a selfless socialist but as I stare at my fat computer and plan a trip on my overpriced bike I've gotta wonder about myself... Although maybe the lower class is plotting as we speak... look out america you may the first!!!!
^_^

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 06:12 PM

I hear ya too mate :) And yes the lower classes are plotting as we speak... I have a dream and in this dream America is where the revolution really begins. I may be mad but everyone is allowed to dream. ^_^

MATT

05-21-2002, 08:24 PM

I have quite a few things to add to this topic, but it'll take me a while to collect my thoughts and some sources.

Needless to say, it should be interesting :)

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 08:58 PM

[PUBLIC PROSECUTOR]
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Let us re-examine the facts of this case. The defendent claims that he has treated his wife and servants fairly. He admits he has sometimes had to be tough and take off his belt and teach his wife and servants how to behave. He claims to be a demanding yet loving husband, father and benefactor and he admits he has has from time to time been over zealous in his treatment of them. He claims this was for their own good. He quotes from the bible, "he who spares the rod spoils the child", "an eye for an eye" and "worship no other god but me".

He admits to profiting from the labours of his servants and from the labour of his lawfully wedded wife. He claims that they have a contract with him and that the contract was fair and open to scrutiny before they agreed to his terms.

But is this contract really fair? Fair to whom? Is it fair to his loving wife? A wife who had no other prospects outside of this marriage. Better sometimes the devil you know than the devil you don't. And the sefvants? What of them? Not signing the contract could have meant hardship beyond words.

I say to you, NO. This contract was not fair. It was not a contract between equals but rather a contract written in the blood and sweat of the very people he claims to be open and above board with. Given alternative choices that were a real possibility THEY WOULD NOT HAVE SIGNED. No rational person would choose to give others power over themselves unless they had no other choice.

Due to his ill temper, his son and daughter left his house and went abroad in search of a better life. Rather than be happy for them he has chose to pursue them to the ends of the earth in order to gain revenge AND TO BRING THEM ONCE MORE UNDER HIS CONTROL. Both the son and daughter continued to reject his advances in the face of abject poverty and misery, poverty and misery brought upon them by the accused. Now the son lays dead in his cold grave and the daughter has been raped and beaten by him and yet still she refuses to bend to his will. We have evidence of all this in abundance. You have seen the evidence with your own eyes and heard it with your own ears. We showed you the gun he used to kill his son and the stick he used to beat his daughter to within an inch of her life. Yet somehow when I look into the faces before me ladies and gentlemen I see no pity for the victims. I see only fear for what the verdict might mean to you all. You sir. Yes, you with the hand made suit fiddling with your car keys. You do not want to see justice here really, do you sir? Are you afraid your wife may take leave of you perhaps? Perhaps the contracts you have made in business also are not all they seem on the surface. And you madam? Are you afraid your servants may take leave of the chores you have set them also if justice is to be served this day? Your vacation in Hawai may be under threat perhaps? Perhaps the fact the accused is so rich he can buy justice here in this court in the face of the facts makes you wary of judging him as he should be judged?

For justice to be done this day ladies and gentlemen then this court must be overthrown by the people on the public benches and in the galleries because the people have stood by for too long watching people like you wash your hands of justice in the name of the status quo. I retire my case.

[JUDGE DREDD] ORDER IN THE COURT!

[PUBLIC PROSECUTOR] SOD THE COURT!

Myshkin

05-21-2002, 09:13 PM

It may surprise some of you that I don't much object to the theory of Rob's workers' paradise... I just think it is unrealistic. The main thing that worries me about Rob's buddies is not Rob... you guys should go visit the U75 board. There are a few level-headed ones there but let me tell you, if those hard-core Marxists are going to be any part of it, count me out. Pure communism would suck big time... I'm talking about the real, idealistic goal of Communism. Rob thinks it can't get much worse than our present system and I think he lacks imagination.

Y'all ever hear the theory that one of the conditions of the Soviet Union pulling the nukes out of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis was that the USA had to promise to stop trying to overtly overthrow Castro or they would go back? Before you write off the theory, think about it...

Spiderman

05-21-2002, 09:23 PM

Hoho. Actually Myshypooh if you had stuck around you would have discovered that the majority at U75 are not my buddies. They are in the majority anarchists were as I am a socialist. I spend most of my time there trying to understand anarchy and debating the pros and cons of anarchism, socialism, communism and capitailsm. They are all quite distinct if people took the trouble to enquire into how. It appears we were all on the same side against you because you came in with the same old same old that we live day in day out. The 50 or so anarchists on U75 hate the SWP with a vengence. I can take that, in fact I can not only take it I can laugh about it. I can see wh