F1 Austria....

[Justin Martin]

Interesting qualifying results, Barrichello dominated qualifying, and is on pole. Ralf did good as well, and is in second. Micheal and JPM struggled through qualifying, both ended up in their spare cars. Micheal's in third, JPM in fourth.

David Hodges (on Speedvision) made an interesting observation. Micheal has had stellar reliability (and luck) for so long, his last DNF was when, Monza? But on the other hand, he's never won at Austria. So which streak is going to be broken, the good reliability streak or the winless @ Austria streak? ;)

[Domagoj]

Yeah, good point...

hey, were you into F1 about hmm 7 or so years ago? (my guess is yes, and before that :)) The one image I have of Schumacher is when he won some race by 70+ seconds, in the rain, I think he was still in the blue Benetton car, but I might be wrong (when did he switch to Ferrari anyways). I can't remember where that race was...I just remember one very long straight through the finish line...but that doesn't narrow much down does it?

Are there any other drivers ever who've managed such an insane margin of victory between themselves and second place? I guess rain "helped" Schumy, he's the all-time master of rain, so they say, and with a finish like that, I'm not one to argue ;)

The race you are talking about was Spain, at Catalunya.. 1996.

It was raining, and Schumacher was unbeatable. It was in the evil F310 Ferrari, the first V10 Ferrari built.

Everytime on to the main straight, he was have that evil car tweaked so that its nose pointed to Portugal, while the rest of it headed south towards France.. Damon Hill tried it just once, and put the Williams smack into to the pit wall.

Once again, Schumacher winning in an inferior car, as he has usually done.. The majority of his races were won in a slower car.

I hope that Ferrari wins again (a 1-2 finish!).



Other drivers who have had Schumachers total superiority when racing in the rain are notably, Ayrton Senna (the genius), and Jean Alesi.. I still remember Alesi in the V12 Ferrari, overtaking Damon Hill's Williams-Renault at Suzuka (at the Casio Chicane). Hill took the inside (defensive) line into the little chicane, but, Jean Alesi gained so much distance under brakes, that he was able to drive straight around the outside of Damon Hill..

[Domagoj]

Unbelievable...in an inferior car...never knew that about him doing that at all, let alone again and again...I never was much of a hardcore fan, I just happened to sit there that day and watch the whole thing... So, who do you think is the best F1 racer ever? Ayrton Senna? Or is it something like Ayrton Senns vs Michael Schumacher as it would be Magic Johnson vs Michael Jordan - arguably for all-time's sake, either one could be chosen, but the emphasis seems to shift toward the present, since that's what seems most prominent in memory, and "rightly" so, it happened more recently...

[DC_Spd]

Some interesting F1 #s to ponder and an interesting F1 history link...... http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/index.htm

GP Wins By Percentage
Rank Driver Races Wins Percent
1 Fangio, Juan Manuel 51 24 47.06%
2 Ascari, Alberto 31 13 41.93%
3 Clark, Jim 72 25 34.72%
4 Schumacher, Michael 162 53 32.72%
5 Stewart, Jackie 99 27 27.27%
6 Prost, Alain 199 51 25.63%
7 Senna, Ayrton 161 41 25.47%
8 Moss, Stirling 60 16 24.24%
9 Hill, Damon 115 22 19.13%
10 Mansell, Nigel 187 31 16.59%
11 Brooks, Tony 38 6 15.79%
12 Lauda, Niki 170 25 14.71%
13 Piquet, Nelson 202 23 11.39%
14 Hakkinen, Mika 165 20 12.12%
15 Brabbham, Jack 126 14 11.11%



Pole Positions By Percentage
Rank Driver Races Poles Percent
1 Fangio, Juan Manuel 51 28 54.90%
2 Clark, Jim 72 33 45.83%
3 Ascari, Alberto 31 14 45.16%
4 Senna, Ayrton 161 65 40.37%
5 Schumacher, Michael 162 43 26.54%
6 Moss, Stirling 66 16 24.24%
7 Hill, Damon 115 20 17.39%
8 Stewart, Jackie 99 17 17.17%
9 Prost, Alain 199 33 17.12%
10 Mansell, Nigel 187 32 17.11%
11 Rindt, Jochen 60 10 16.67%
12 Hakkinen, Mika 165 26 15.75%
13 Lauda, Niki 171 24 15.29%
14 Hunt, James 92 14 15.22%
15 Andretti, Mario 131 18 13.74%



Fastest Laps By Percentage
Rank Driver Races Fast Laps Percent
1 Fangio, Juan Manuel 51 23 45.10%
2 Ascari, Alberto 31 13 41.94%
3 Clark, Jim 72 28 38.89%
4 Moss, Stirling 66 19 28.79%
5 Schumacher, Michael 162 44 27.16%
6 Gonzalez, Jose Froilan 26 6 23.08%
7 Prost, Alain 199 37 18.59%
8 Montoya, Juan Pablo 17 3 17.65%
9 Hill, Damon 115 19 16.52%
10 Mansell, Nigel 187 30 16.04%
11 Stewart, Jackie 99 15 15.15%
12 Farina, Giuseppe 33 5 15.15%
13 Hakkinen, Mika 165 15 15.15%
14 Lauda, Niki 170 25 14.70%
15 Hawthorn, Mike 45 6 13.33%



Average Points Per GP Start
Rank Driver Races Points Ave.
1 Fangio, Juan Manuel 51 303 5.94
2 Schumacher, Michael 162 801 4.94
2 Ascari, Alberto 31 151 4.87
4 Prost, Alain 199 847 4.26
5 Farina, Giuseppe 33 140 4.24
6 Clark, Jim 72 299 4.15
7 Senna, Aryton 161 648 4.02
8 Stewart, Jackie 99 387 3.91
9 Hill, Damon 115 360 3.13
10 Moss, Stirling 66 204 3.09
11 Hawthorn, Mike 45 131 2.91
12 Coulthard, David 124 359 2.89
13 Mansell, Nigel 187 501 2.68
14 Lauda, Niki 170 446 2.62
14 Hakkinen, Mika 165 420 2.54



Percentage of Podium (1-2-3) Finishes
Rank Driver Races Podiums Percent
1 Fangio, Juan Manuel 51 24-10-1 68.63%
2 Farina, Giuseppe 33 5-9-6 60.60%
3 Schumacher, Michael 162 53-19-25 59.87%
4 Prost, Alain 199 51-35-20 53.27%
5 Ascari, Alberto 31 13-3-0 51.61%
6 Senna, Ayrton 161 41-23-16 49.69%
7 Clark, Jim 72 25-1-6 44.44%
8 Stewart, Jackie 99 27-11-5 43.43%
9 Coulthard, David 124 11-25-15 41.11%
10 Hill, Damon 115 22-15-5 41.00%
11 Hawthorn, Mike 45 3-9-6 40.00%
12 Moss, Stirling 66 16-5-3 36.36%
13 Hill, Phil 48 3-5-8 33.33%
14 Lauda, Niki 170 25-20-9 31.76%
15 Mansell, Nigel 187 31-17-11 31.55%

I would like to suggest that Juan Fangios wins were the result of fortunate circumstances. Since, back in those days, there was massive differences in performances between cars. That allowed him to win so many races..

The best? I'd nominate the following (in no order):

Michael Schumacher
Ayrton Senna
Jean Alesi
Alan Jones (1980 F1 world champion)
Gerhard Berger
Jim Clark

[D_Man]

I would nominate the best F1 drivers as follows:

Fangio (eras are hard to compare but he was without peer)
Senna (raw talent and died too soon)
Jim Clark (simply amazing driver who also died too soon)
Nuvolari (before true GP racing commenced, but a genius behind the wheel)
Schumacher (a great driver)

There are others, but I would rate these the best :)

Dave

[Spiderman]

Nasty crash...

:Puke: Michael Schumacher


V says Prost was good! She is a mine of information to me )=)

[Justin Martin]

I think there's a couple of problems with ranking drivers, aside from comparing incomparable eras, namely Jim Clark and Aryton Senna. Clark died long before he would have retired, imagine what he could have done in the 49B and 72. Clark probably had five years left in him, and those years would have been at a time when Lotus dominated. Imagine the damage he could have done in a car with downforce. Same thing with Senna, though he might have been closer to retireing than Clark.

Also, while the competition might not have been as stiff during Fangio/Ascari's era, the cars were far more difficult to drive. Not to dimenish the vast skill it takes to drive a modern F1 car, and this doesn't mean that Fangio or Ascari were better than anyone else, but Grand Prix cars of the '50s were beasts to drive. The car competition was pretty tight between the top three or so I think, just alot more "back markers" than you see now. And they say Fangio knew the Nurburgring better than just about anyone else...

[[XR](\/)power]

This was a gift for Michael and it makes me sick that the team would do this, not only did Barrichelo deserve this win but he also needed it for points, again this is one of those days I want to punch that short man at the ferrari wall, I like this team but truly there was no need. Michael would have still picked up 6 points, which is more than enough, following this Michael will get bashed by ppl who don't really like him saying that he's the favourite. Well there's no denying it now is it? Again makes me sick, I really like what Schumacher did which was share the podium with Barrichello, <---HE is the true winner today....ugh:(

[MATT]

Michael Schumacher quote: "I hope that the championship is soon finished so we can go for real racing"

What's wrong with letting him race right NOW? It's exactly these tactics which have, over the last couple of years, made me less and less of a Ferrari fan and Michael Schumacher fan. I don't care if it's to help Schumi in the championship, he's already leading! Ferrari's cars are almost always bulletproof reliable as well. The likeliness of the cars failing is very small. All that leaves is Schumacher up to his usual dirty tactics and accidentally taking himself out in the process sometimes.

This is why I will wish Ferrari ill from now on. Barichello has been proving his true worth lately and has been keeping up Schumacher's pace in qualifying and even beating him on a few occasions this season.

These chicken-shit tactics apparently run in the Schumacher blood as well. Ralf was scared shitless of Juan towards the end of last season and was asking Williams to think about team orders. Real racers don't need that to win. Juan's still hanging on to 2nd place in the championship, 7 points behind Michael, and I'll be praying for him to beat BOTH of those Schumacher scum bags this season. He's got the talent, but his car isn't quite up to the Ferrari challenge yet. It's hanging on, though.

[Wazza]

yes, again I went to bed early... F1 is getting really boring.. dirty things going on, Ferrari have a super advantage... be more fun if they were handicapped, or forced to start at the back everytime.. :D

I only saw up to about lap 30 or something... they were just starting to do pit stops when the yellow flag came out...

Thats it! I'm furious.

Why does everyone blame Schumacher for it. It was team orders! He has to follow what the team tells him to do. If not, they'll probably get rid of him from the team.

In F1, you do what you are told to do..

And, why does everyone blame Ferrari about this.. Mclaren has done this sort of thing more times than anyone else in the history of F1..

And besides, a team should be allowed to arrange its cars in whichever position they want them to be in, to get maximum benefit to the team (ie, another drivers world championship). You all seem to forget that Schumacher has also done this sort of thing, for other drivers, to allow them to win.. But when that happens, nobody takes notice..


I must also criticise the idea of penalising a car, and making it start from the back, or hitting it with weight penalties, if they are fast.. That turns the teams in too a bunch of whining whingers (like in V8 supercars).. You get the "oh such and such beat is this race, they should have a weight penalty put on them," sort of crap.. If your team in slower, then, so be it.. Get the designers to design something better, or work harder to make the car faster..

[Domagoj]

I only caught the last 6 laps on a taped broadcast this evening...yeah...so absolutely pointless...how can it be any good for the team? What the hell are they talking about? Even if one of them happens to get into a bad wreck and miss the rest of the season, how does it make the team better off to give those points up - the total team points will remain the same...

You know what I think? The most likely thing is that Ferrari simply wants to be able to say they had not only the winningest driver ever on their team, but also won at every track (and since they had the opportunity to do that, HEY, RACING? What's that??)...this is pure Ferrari ego crap that really has nothing to do with Schummy, plus, again, it's really not fair how much of an advantage the Ferrari cars themselves are giving those guys in red, but I guess it would be a bit more boring if there weren't that as much of a performance/reliability gap between different makes of cars...

I'd really like to know just what the exact rules are in F1 as far as the cars go. Sure, it's all shrouded in mystery what the actual car is set up like, but I really wonder what kind of rule bending goes on...since not every single thing can be totally resticted, or else there would be almost no room at all for improvement/modification...

I've said it before, any sanctioned industry is nothing more than a game of prestige with bragging rights for the OWNER of a wining team/driver/car - it has almost nothing to do with the actual racers...it's just who can ride the biggest wave of hype so they get more money from sponsors next time round...what a heap of shit...

Quote from Dumagoj:
"it's really not fair how much of an advantage the Ferrari cars themselves are giving those guys in red"

The Ferrari cars are within the limits of the rules, which state what technnologies can be used, and, what design elements are allowed. Merely because a car is fast doesn't mean that it is unfare because it wins a race.. It just happens that Ferrari has designed a better car.. Nothing unfare about that.

But, now, I must take aim at all those blindfolded, idiotic Ferrari tifosi, you, know, the ones with the "if the driver wins, it's because of the car, and, if the car loses, it's the drivers fault" attitude.. Damn ungreatful people they are.. Their beloved red-machines would still be crumbling away with problem after problem, if it were not for Michael Schumacher.. He put his F1 career ambitions on hold, and went with that hopeless struggling team, and made it into a great team.. And they have the nerve to blame Schumacher for what happened in Austria..

[Nite]

Hi guys, back after a while. (new home, new connection, etc.)

As M.S. put it, Ferrari would look a bit stupid if in the end they'd lose the championship by a few points. I guess about as stupid as the spectators did who thought they watch a 'race'. last pitstop excitement...not for the people in on the game.
F1 looks like a hi-tech carnival loosely based on racing. Teams (this year its Ferrari's turn) dont even blink while they possibly deny fans worldwide a great racing season, just so their drivers dont have to race for the title past mid season. And that despite being so much better than everyone else. If you plan to visit a GP later in the year, your fault!
Could Schumacher (and all the others who did it in the past) have refused to pass, could Rubens have raced for victory to the line?? Propably, but that they didn't just underlines how insignificant F1 drivers and their opinions really are, race results being pre-planned in shareholder meetings. Watching proceedings on the podium/press conference was just painful, obviously no one was comfortable admitting to be just a small wheel in some greater plan. Or that's what they said anyway, and they're getting paid for it.

Highlight of the race was that Sato turned out to be allright, it did not look good at first.

[Ashwin91]

Ok..i'll just say one thing.

Chris did have some good points about McLearen also giving team orders and such.

All i would like to say is that,Ferrari did not have to make it that obvious.They could have done it earlier it seemed.Why was it in the last stint?Who knows.Just bad timing i guess.

And its good to hear that Sato he's doing good:)

Late Edit: Oh and i don't belive Shumi would have been sacked for not following the orders,either.Maybe fined,but thats it.He did have that choice:p .

Yours,
Ashwin

[DC_Spd]

Team orders have been a part of F1 for many years, ppl should not expect anything diff. It isn't that long ago that Ferrari was a back marker, Shumi brought much of this team with him from Benneton. It may seem unfair to Ruebens but he knows where he stands in the team or he wouldn't have signed a new contract. He will someday be the #1 driver for a team but right now his job is to get between Shumi and Montoya and he's doing a hell of job at it. This is simply the reality of F1 racing, there is millions of $$$ invested, every single point must be taken to insure both the constructors and drivers championships. Montoya and the Williams team are soon going to be a threat, Ferrari can't afford to wait for them.


as far who's the best, its hard to compare drivers from diff eras. The best driver is who ever was the best in your fav era. I like seeing races from the 50's where men like Fangio and Moss were battling for the then newly created drivers championship in cars like the Ferrari 500 or the Masserati 250F. Those were sweet cars.

[Domagoj]

chris : "It just happens that Ferrari has designed a better car.. Nothing unfare about that."

According to the rules, yes it's fair, but I mean a test of raw driving skill, nothing but. It will never be a test of raw skill - sure sometimes there will be the ones who win in inferior cars, but there will never really be a "level playing field" as far as there being nothing left to chance except driver's luck (accidents) and/or mechanical failure...

Any F1 car is a test of driving skill. It takes precision, and skill just to make any of those cars get around a race track in an even moderately fast time. It's to do with the massive power output.

[[XR](\/)power]

This just in...

There is news of Ferrari being put under questioning after the tacitical move done at the A1 ring. Personally I think they just want to burn Ferrari because of the fan response, which is absolutely out of order. That was a perfectly fair and within the rule book move by ferrari officials the Stewarts have no place in this, I think they're getting really tired of Ferrari literally destroying the competition so they figure lets give all the other teams a break.

I will investigate more on this matter since I just found out about this and I might be incorrect.

[D_Man]

It is actually just a smoke screen to appease the fans who have been very vocal in their response to the Ferrari team "orders".

In the past Ferrari have been given preferential treatment which has angered the other teams. The FIA will only issue a brief reprimand and that will be it.

Even though F1 racing is at the most boring ebb of its entire history, Bernie and his mates won't change anything to promote any "real" racing.

I haven't watched one whole race this year and don't intend to. In the past I have been an avid fan of F1, but this sanitised, boring, follow-the-leader stuff has killed any enthusiasm I had for it.

Michael will win 5 championships (and probably more) and will go down in history as the most successful F1 driver of all time, but it is a poor, faded shadow of what F1 could be :'(

I don't think we should go back to the 50s and 60s with the numerous racing fatalities of those times, but we should try to recapture what F1 racing is about - the pinacle of motor sport.

People denigrate Nascar (nastycar) racing as a redneck passtime, but at least it is racing in the true sense with constant lead changes and cars going through turns 3 abreast. That is exciting stuff.

People don't want to watch a parade of high-tech machinery going round and round and no overtaking.

My 2 cents

Dave

[Spiderman]

You haven't seen me racing F1 Dave. Giles and Rene move over please :D

I can now see that Michael was just following orders. Being a loyal employee he had no choice. There are loads of people unemployed in Germany right now so it is perhaps understandable. There are only 22, drivers if he had got the sack it would have been impossible to get back into F1 racing. It's hard to have a job and integrity...

[FeZ]

Oh come on people, Schumacher getting sacked by Ferrari for not following a team order. Or even if so, every team there is would do everything possible to get him into their cockpit. I wonder if he could also win in a Minardi.

Where would Ferrari be without Schumacher's efford in the last couple of years. He is not a simple employee for Ferrari, he is definitely very involved in the developement of the car and also in strategic decissions prior to/while the race.

If he realy did not like the teamorder, that came from his buddys Jean Todt & Ross Brawn, why didnt he just also lift the throttle or brake and let Barichello have his well deserved win ?
Such a move would have made him a true champion. But he didnt and that is sad, I hope he (or the team) gets punished for this.

[Vince Klortho]

I just saw this at the simbin -

Quote from Formula 1 Yearbook:

"The week before the Brazilian race, the FIA had put out a statement declaring that teams could no longer arbitrarily decide the finishing order of their drivers."

"In Interlagos, Bernie Ecclestone declared that the two McLaren would be disqualified if they adoped a similar tactic to the one used in Austrailia"

I guess that was then and this is now.

:rolleyes:

[D_Man]

Now for some light relief. Check out this link - made me laugh anyway:

http://forum.racesim.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24540

Dave

[Spiderman]

Hehe. Brilliant stuff. ^_^

[Remko]

:spit: Agreed - that's hilarious. ^_^