Powerful cars/young people - ban nearing.

[chris]

In New South Wales, a ban will soon be enforced, preventing young drivers from owning powerful cars. This ban would apparently include all supercharged and turbocharged cars, along with anything else powerful.

I'm guessing that it might spread to other states as well.

It's a totally irrational knee-jerk reaction, and won't do anything to stop some young drivers doing stupid things on the road. You'd have to ban the sale of cars to inexperienced/young drivers, since nearly every car is capable of speeding. Even a car capable of only 110km/hr is capable of speeding, where the speed limit is 60km/hr, or 70km/hr.

The ban doesn't address the real issues, and it doesn't encourage drivers to behave in a mature manner on the roads.

Why can't the bureaucrats see this? For us, it is black and white, crystal clear.. Then I suppose driver education doesn't win votes, does it?

[Frank N. O.]

I just got back from another bad days driving in Odense so please don't get me started on this, I'm already deeply depressed since it doens't look like I can find a place I can live peacefully in.

In short: People, ALL people seems to ignore the rules and therefore it's extremely hard to anticipate what they plan on doing and this is normal driving in all of Denmark, and FYI, ANYONE in Denmark can be a reckless driver/speedfreak: Old, young, poor, rich, fast car, slow car, new car, old car, male, female, doesn't matter jack anymore here.

When I took my license 8 years ago at a great driving teacher, I was nevertheless only taught basic rules, but he said that after the passed test, the real training begins. I think they should change the whole driving school system, as a start since driving teaching is not the only thing that can cause reckless driving, tight scheduling and stress with getting time for work, shopping, children etc. is another matter that I think can cause this.
There's been a few single events where people can try and evaluate how fast they can drive thrue a slippery corner on a driver-training facility and they all over estimated, a lot! The cars understeers right thrue all cones, men and women, young and old experienced drivers!

Now you know why I constantly dream of Australia, outside of big cites and just 20 km's from a small satellite-town I can buy groceries at. Peace for myself in my little house and peace when driving where there aren't 5 roads and 6 different lanes of intersecting traffic to try and guess who does what.

I never ever want to live in a city again. Actually if I could get a big island for myself a short private flight from the mainland, that would be awesome, but then again, so would the price be, and the chance to find one that's not already inhabited by a small town or is protected due to unique endangered nature.

Best wishes for us all.

Frank

[chris]

What gets me mad is that none of this was a problem 6 months ago, and nothing was different back then. The government only takes this reaction to win kudos from the conservative voters.

But it's an ill (or maybe well) thought through idea designed to win votes, not prevent immature young drivers from killing themselves or others.

[VQ]

Well, it's sucks, I'm actually covered to drive Dad's Golf TDi, but no under 30 driver by themself is, because of the fact it has a TURBO on it, it's a diesel for gods sake! It NEEDS a turbocharger to move!

Well, I'm glad V8's are n/a as are commodore 6's, so I can safely just a get my Caprice still and work on it for n/a power, unlike those Silvia's and skylines.

They are going the wrong way, but what can we do about it other then vote them out? not much.

Politictions are idoits and people are rebelling and fighting the government more and more anyway so they will get caught out.

[chris]

No, afraid not. V8's are out as well. As are any vehicle with a powerful engine.

So you might be waving goodbye to your hopes to get that V8 Holden. 6 cylinder commodores might be out as well, and almost definately new ones, since a Commodore has 190kW, or 175kW with the least potent V6 engine.

There are other possible anomalies as well. What happens with the 22 year old who has to drive a Commodore for work purposes that features then 190kW engine? Does the company find him/her another car? Or simply take the easy option, and find someone else?

And what about those young people who drive turbo-diesel company cars/work vehicles? These aren't high performance cars, and in most cases, wouldn't blow the hat off your head.. But they are turbocharged, so you can see the potential problems.

The silly thing is that these new regulations/ideas don't address the problem properly, they are only to win media kudos, or votes with the conservative 45-80 year old public, especially the 80 year olds, many of who criticise young drivers as extremely dangerous, whilst excusing, or conveniently forgetting their own bad driving habits.

I'm not starting an age war here, but hell, some of them have to realise that there is a point where one can sometimes become physically, or mentally not capable of operating a motor vehicle.

[VQ]

That compleltly sucks then, in victoria we have the 125hp/tonne rule, why can't they just add no turbocharged or supercharged petrol engines? there will be a lot of execptions needing to be made, but insurance is another thing, I mean a Turbo skyline costs, what? 20,000? you want to have full insurance and that's another 5 grand a year or so in premiums cos it's a skyline etc, people pay A LOT to be able to own these cars, if they can afford all of that, then they can afford a decent driving course, it is discrimination, lets pick on the old people, or even the middle aged people buying the cars new for the kids to get these cars in the first place!!

But, 190kw in a 1600kg isn't that quick, they should take into account the power to weight ratio.

[chris]

Young hooligans with V8's are as much, or an even bigger menace than those with the turbocharged/supercharged cars.

I watched an accident happen because of a couple of young idiots in 2 Holdens (one a Monaro CV8, the other a Commodore SS). They would have been doing 180km/hr in a 70km/hr zone. And unfortunately the one in the Monaro caused an accident, hitting another car when he lost control under braking.

But, 190kw in a 1600kg isn't that quick, they should take into account the power to weight ratio

I'll look at it from the conservative family point of view (not my own however, since I like quick cars):

Why does one need 190kW, if the legal maximum speed limit is 110km/hr. Wouldn't 55kW and 1.4L be perfectly adequate to do the same thing? That's what some will say, and it is impossible to argue with that on any grounds.

[Y2kGoofball]

Why does one need 190kW, if the legal maximum speed limit is 110km/hr. Wouldn't 55kW and 1.4L be perfectly adequate to do the same thing? That's what some will say, and it is impossible to argue with that on any grounds. ok to tell you the truth I want a SS Commodore, but I also want to wait because I realise the power is just too much for me

I also want a SV6 (190 KW), more then enough power, I know because our VS Commodore has more than enough power and its a stock standard base model

Now not that my dads a bad driver or anything but he once "tested" how far the Pulsar would go before it maxed out. With us 2 in it we managed 135 kph 'easily', ie it wasnt instantly it took its time being a 1.4 ltr, but we got there and it could still have gone further.

So theres no way in hell anyone can tell me that even a small 1.4 ltr 4 cyliner with what, 90 or less kW cant get up to speed.

BUT part of it is trying to crack down on cars that can reach such speeds in a short amount of time, lets call it NFS Undergroundism, that is getting to in excess of 130 kph in the smallest amount of time

Now in NSW the talk is banning ALL P Plate drivers (and the minimum your on your Ps is 3 years in total) from V8, Super OR Turbo charged. From what Ive been told this means any supercharged S Pack, Calais or even the Turbo charged XR6, or Rodeo or Mitsubishi Triton work ute! If its charged, its a no no

Now I must disagree, I agree turbocharged as in a Skyline, WRX etc, but c'mon, a Turbio Charged company Triton isnt a hoons car! What Ive said all along is put a limit on POWER, and make it basically whatever a standard Exec Commodore or XT Falcon so you can still drive mum and dads car and lower.

Or maybe they need to specifically list each car and the maximum power, so personalise it to prevent someone still having a turbo charged WRX with the same power as a Commodore.

The other thing theyve got to watch out for is the number of P Platers who will now remove their plates to avoid being pulled over. I notice on the motoways where a p plater is restricted (red = 90 kph, green = 100 kph, motorways peed = 110) they take their back plates off, and do in excess of even the 110 limit, but theoretically to a cop behind them they cant tell its a P plater unless they pull you over

I know people who have already said if they did the night time curfew they'd just remove their P plates, same with these restrictions. IF you get pulled over then sure your in the shite, but there are people who are happy to remove the P plates and cut down on the chance of being pulled over.

Anyways I'm off mine in mid 2006 (its the earliest I can get) and some of the plans Ive heard their thinking of introducing (such as mandatory driver ducation courses which they want you to pay) wont be until 2007 anyway

[Commander]

It does work both ways though, a powerful and agile car can actually improve safety if the driver uses the features for the right purposes. For example, a sportscar handles better than a sedan, and can therefore avoid obstacles much easier. I may have been killed by a deer when I was 17 had I been driving my Dad's Chrysler 5th ave instead of a Trans Am. Thankfully, I was able to swerve around the deer and keep the car on the road, the Chrysler would have rolled or worset yet, hit the deer. Also, more powerful cars are equipped with better brakes, again, safer if some jerk decides to hammer on the stoppers 'cause he almost missed his turn, or safer yet if a kid chases a ball out in front of your car. Potent acceleration is a life saver in heavy traffic too. I can't stand driving my van in traffic or when merging onto the highway because it just doesn't move when you hit the gas, and it gets frightening wathching 18-wheelers in the rear view mirror soar up behind you because you just can't get up to speed fast enough. So yeah, the issue should be education and training, not age. I really wish that the training required to obtain your operators license was more involved. It seems that almost any sap can get a license these days, which is a scary thought. When I took my drivers exam in the early 90's, the government was in control of the testing here. It was really tough to pass your exams (you had to successfully demonstrate your emergency skills on special test tracks), and it kept a lot of bad drivers off the road. Nowadays, the testing has been handed to private registries, and the examiners practically give the licenses away to anybody who coughs up the cash. There is no more skid control testing, high speed obstacle avoidance training, or systems failure training (brake failure, tire blowout etc) available other than at race schools. It used to be mandatory and part of the basic training, and I wish it still was. In 1991, quite possibly the best drivers on the road in Alberta were aged 16 - 25.

[chris]

What I can't believe is that people (outside of here) don't see this for the load of bull that it is.

As I said in a previous message RE: a similar subject, the young "hoon" drivers driving too fast, or doing huge burnouts in the street in their hotted up V8 cars will still do that, but it'll be more like in Europe, where it will be old Ford Escorts, Opel Kadetts, Ford Capris, etc. Or whatever car they can get hold of.

But horsepower limits, or engine capacity limits aren't always the answer either. Look at the little Fiat Seicento Sporting, it will do a genuine 175km/hr, even despite having only a 1.1L engine. And that, in Australia would allow a driver to potentially go 65km/hr over the speed limit.

What will happen I predict is that young drivers will just wait until they can legally get the powerful cars, and then do in the powerful cars what they couldn't do before.. :rolleyes:

[VQ]

Working a old holden 6 can easily get over the limit, but what about cars like the E38 Charger? You can own one of them, but you can't own a 253 HQ Statesman? THat would be the worst ever combination of power and weight, the HQ with a 253, but you can't drive that cos it's a V8, but you could easily have a hi-po 6 like the charger or Torana?

Our Golf sits on 1900rpm for 100km/h and it's very easy to get going to 150 at 3000rpm, and the rev limiter is goverened at 5000, but by 3500 there is no power really, so that doesn't matter, but you can easily break the limit, maybe they should push for better braking and training as has been said by me and commander and y2k, as commander said:
the issue should be education and training, not age. I really wish that the training required to obtain your operators license was more involved. It seems that almost any sap can get a license these days, which is a scary thought. When I took my drivers exam in the early 90's, the government was in control of the testing here. It was really tough to pass your exams (you had to successfully demonstrate your emergency skills on special test tracks), and it kept a lot of bad drivers off the road. Nowadays, the testing has been handed to private registries, and the examiners practically give the licenses away to anybody who coughs up the cash.

It's too true, they need to make harder courses, there are a lot of idiots on the road.

I'm glad I changed my plans for the car I want till I can real afford it (over 21) to a slug, a damn slow diesel golf, I had plans of turbocharging it, but apparantly turboing that n/a diesel motor is not a good idea and things break. So I'll just save for a 1.9 or 2.0 TDi motor out of a mk5 wreck and then claim it as a n/a, maybe.

[chris]

That plan wouldn't work, since I hear that car modifying is also out of the question.

[VQ]

Lol, no, that one I do find hard to beleive, because, they wouldn't be able to tell on my GLD with the stock motor if it's been upgraded, because it's one of the most obsecure motors and I very much doubt cops would target a cleanish sootyish diesel, compared to the other cars on the road which don't make as much noise as diesels do stock, it's all going to be internal mods and fuel mods basically, cos that's all you can do to make a diesel go better.

I don't know how they could stop young people from modifying their cars, it's the time when people do, people get sick of doing that sort of stuff or can't afford it or are too busy once they get older, and once people hit 21, what's going to happen? they all rush to their high performance cars and it's learning all over again.

I say Toyota's behind this to get every young person to drive an Echo, or Corolla, or Camry :p....

[Smokey!]

I havnīt read all the comments, but I totally understand the situation. Also beeing from Denmark like Frank I see another problem. And that is, that young drivers or whatever WANT to go fast. That isnt a problem really, the REAL problem is that the authorities wont tolerate it AT ALL. So that means that no matter how many times the local street racers have ASKED for a place to go fast in a legally and secufe place the answer have always been: NO it is not correct to want to drive fast, it is political uncorrect if anyone thinks a car is anything but a means of transportation from A to B.
I really hate them for this because this dosnt solve the problem. And not long ago, what everyone feared was going to happen, happened. To people where driving fast and somehow one of them lost control of the car and killed a pedestrian. The response from the authorities: Treat people who breaks the law by going fast, as murderes. Going fast now means you risk the same amount of jailtime as if you killed someone. Stupid stupid STUPID! This wouldnt have happend if there had been a secure raceway where legal races could be organized, but instead of admitting it, the politicians just wont tolerate the fact that people like to drive fast.
Enough blabber from me non, just...had to tell someone.

[chris]

Here, we have race-tracks, but they won't use them, because its inconvenient, and isn't cool. (probably also because real race-cars tend to turn up at race-tracks)

I would support harsh penalties for those convicted of public-road racing to be honest, or here at least anyhow.

Funny also how one Honda driver is totally different to the twits in the modified Suzuki I spotted.. The young Honda driver (who should be in the demographic of those who speed and race on the roads) was driving in a very mature manner, even despite being encouraged to have a race away from the traffic lights from some others in another car?

Surprising that, because he could have left them way behind with this Honda.

I almost didn't see it at all at first, I looked over and saw nothing, even though I could hear that something was there, but then as it rolled away from a set of traffic lights, there it was - a very low and wide mid-engined NSX.

[Commander]

The mentality that going to the track is uncool is absolute idiocy! What better place to race than a facility all equipped with emergency vehicles and staff, for your own safety or even that of your car! Here, local tracks have special public racing events to keep people off the streets, and they host all sorts of swap meets and car viewings etc. It gets people familiar with the racing scene here, and allows racers to get to know one another too. The attitude amongst racers, as a result, is that you are a poseur if you race on the street. Often, if someone makes reference to having "blown a guy away at a stoplight", he will face a verbal lashing from the real racers. Even all the high performance part stores have posters promoting the race track events, and there are many ads on TV that do the same. I recall that police set up a sting operation once on the illegal street racing, and instead of just busting in on everyone and having everyone try to escape, they set up road blocks to box all the street racers in, and had the HAWC1 helicopter circling. The cops then went around explaining how dangerous street racing was, and gave the people information and passes to the Friday night "secret streets" races that are held at the local track. So, the track, stores, media and police have all contributed to help people understand that racing IS cool, but only when done on the track.

[Justin Martin]

When I took my drivers exam in the early 90's, the government was in control of the testing here. It was really tough to pass your exams (you had to successfully demonstrate your emergency skills on special test tracks), and it kept a lot of bad drivers off the road. Nowadays, the testing has been handed to private registries, and the examiners practically give the licenses away to anybody who coughs up the cash. There is no more skid control testing, high speed obstacle avoidance training, or systems failure training (brake failure, tire blowout etc) available other than at race schools. It used to be mandatory and part of the basic training, and I wish it still was. In 1991, quite possibly the best drivers on the road in Alberta were aged 16 - 25.

I agree completely, that's the way driver's ed should be. Mine consisted of seven hours of driving, only three of which were in situations that were even remotely challenging.

Just out of curiosity, how much did the cost of driver's ed go up when they did that system?

[Commander]

I actually don't recall, my folks paid for it, so I'd have to ask them. I know it did get cheaper when things were privatised, but I don't think the difference is that big. I had to go through 7 eight-hour days of training before I could even challenge the exam. 4 hours of each day were classroom, and 4 hours were spent on the road or obstacle course. Nowadays you show up at the registry, give them money, and hit the road for a 20 minute test driving around a few blocks, which a monkey could pass.

[chris]

The mentality that going to the track is uncool is absolute idiocy! What better place to race than a facility all equipped with emergency vehicles and staff, for your own safety or even that of your car! Here, local tracks have special public racing events to keep people off the streets, and they host all sorts of swap meets and car viewings etc. It gets people familiar with the racing scene here, and allows racers to get to know one another too. The attitude amongst racers, as a result, is that you are a poseur if you race on the street. Often, if someone makes reference to having "blown a guy away at a stoplight", he will face a verbal lashing from the real racers. Even all the high performance part stores have posters promoting the race track events, and there are many ads on TV that do the same. I recall that police set up a sting operation once on the illegal street racing, and instead of just busting in on everyone and having everyone try to escape, they set up road blocks to box all the street racers in, and had the HAWC1 helicopter circling. The cops then went around explaining how dangerous street racing was, and gave the people information and passes to the Friday night "secret streets" races that are held at the local track. So, the track, stores, media and police have all contributed to help people understand that racing IS cool, but only when done on the track.

I think they prefer the "Underground" style of racing promoted by NFS Underground games around here. It's ridiculous.

[blackice111288]

I actually don't recall, my folks paid for it, so I'd have to ask them. I know it did get cheaper when things were privatised, but I don't think the difference is that big. I had to go through 7 eight-hour days of training before I could even challenge the exam. 4 hours of each day were classroom, and 4 hours were spent on the road or obstacle course. Nowadays you show up at the registry, give them money, and hit the road for a 20 minute test driving around a few blocks, which a monkey could pass.

which is soooo true

[monaro]

if this comes into legislation in south australia it will mean that i cant drive any of our cars, they are all turbo diesels and V8's.

[blackice111288]

in response to vq's comment about not knowing if your car has been modified, yall better hope they dont start doing you all like in Califorina. If you are suspected of having aftermarket parts, they will pull you over and issue a fix-it ticket and possibly a fine

[VQ]

What if everything is 100% legal and engineered? Then they can't do anything about it.

We have off street drag racing, up in Sydney, they have built Western Sydney International dragstrip, which is the best track in Australia, built by drag racers for drag racers, they have drag race's every friday night, just like Calder park, it is promoted heavily from what I've heard, it's just that people are impatient and don't want to wait.

I've read about the illegal drag racing style meets in Las vega's, or the very outskirts of Las Vega's and they can drag with no safety equipment whatso ever, you can even turn up in shorts and thongs on your feet! it's to keep the authenticity of the illegal meets. And it's done in the middle of the night.

But as I said Chris, in Melbourne, Perth and Sydney at least where there are drag meets every week, it is pushed for off-street drag racing. Only the few idiots who are too scared to go and get a timeslip showing how slow they are don't go.

[Commander]

Good point blackice. I really hope it gets the boot rather than passed though. Discrimination is discrimination, be it racial, gender related, or based on age. You start a snowball rolling once you allow one form of discimination.

We just recently won a huge battle against the insurance companies here. Previously, your insurance rates were based on your age and gender, where young males got the crap end of the stick. This was finally deemed an act of discrimination, and the rules were revamped where your insurance rates now depend on your driving record alone. This means that a 40 year old woman with several speeding tickets or collisons will pay more insurance than a 16 year old male with a clean drivers license. This came into effect after the graduated license was introduced, which means for the beginning period of your licensing (first couple of years I think), you must abide by certain curfews and whatnot.

[VQ]

They want to introduce things like a curfew at night as well here for p platers, because a few idiots wrap themselves around trees or poles with mates in the car, it's the few people that wreck it for the people are good, you get it at school.

[Commander]

Yeah, see, that I am not against, because it is based on your experience rather than age. So someone who is 30 that just got their license will be treated the same as someone who is 16 and just got their license. That seems fair to me. What I think should be available, however, is advanced driving classes that allow one to bypass the curfews and probationary terms. An example would be where a 16 year old gets his/her license, but goes on to take all the difficult training to make him/her a better and safer driver. This new training should put this person in a sort of "journeyman" driver position, where he/she no longer needs to be babysat by the system. This alone would actually encourage people to take the damn classes. I don't know about you, but I would rather have to go through a week of intense training and get it over with than have to lollygag around for a number of years waiting for my license to mature. I feel sorry for the poor saps fresh out of high school who get thier first job at a warehouse or whatever, and are scheduled for the night shift, yet can't even get to work because they aren't allowed to drive during certain hours. And most likely, busses don't run the night shift either, so by limiting the hours a young person can drive a car, the government is actually stalling the potential economy. It's a stretch, but true never the less. &(

[chris]

The media beat-up still continues on this issue. :rolleyes:

Looks like any powerful car is going to be targetted now, and of course, they have a father and mother on the TV weeping, making out that powerful cars, or TV ads advertising powerful cars were responsible for the death of their son/daughter/relative.

It's just not correct! A car does not make one go fast. It needs someone to make it go fast. If someone crashes in a fast car, because they were going fast, it was their fault, not the fault of the car.

Okay, I might be biased because I have a love of very high performance sports-cars (anything good for 280km/hr or more), but I think I'm being realistic about it.

Just a shame that driver education doesn't buy votes, or public sympathy at election times.. So instead, we take the knee-jerk reaction, create a "supercar-scare", kill off a lot of very decent cars, and still end up with a heap of dim-bulb dangerous drivers on our roads, still driving quickly and dangerously in less powerful cars, with less well developed driving dynamics.

Brilliant prospect isn't it? :rolleyes:

Anyhow, VQ's wants his V8 Holden Caprice, while I aspire to a silver Ferrari F355 Berlinetta in some years time. ;)

I'm old enough that this young driver/powerful car stuff doesn't apply to me, but the 130km/hr governed speed limits, or proposed bans on powerful cars do worry me - because an F355 does 285km/hr, and has 388bhp. Very quick, and maybe very illegal if some get their way. :(

[Commander]

Y'know chris, I wouldn't be surprised if a properly solicited "driver education" campaign would indeed win votes. I think where the votes matter to current politicians is in that knowing almost no young people vote (a TRUE disgrace to our generation), so they prey upon the parents and older folk. Man that is cowardly! I am not a politician, nor do my thoughts towards street safety reflect upon any political ideology, but I do believe that if one was to truely try to "win votes", they'd be better focussed on getting Gen-X and younger to actually vote in the first place, and forget about attracting the fogies. The whole driving thing may ultimately be a way to attract younger voters, now there's food for thought. I know that if I was 15 and heard of this sort of oppressive action from the government, I would rally my older brothers and their friends to get them off their duffs and actually go to the voting polls! At the same time, if I was 18 and was able to vote, I would make damn sure that I capitalized on my right to vote. Maybe I am just old fashioned, or perhaps even somewhat of a hopeless romantic, but with the people I know, any effort to "win" votes by introducing a ban like we are discussing would be met with revolutionary force. amd would ultimately lose votes. Then again, Canada's voters are a bit askew from the norm in more ways than one, so I hope I am no just blowing smoke here.

[lewi]

The government may just as well be a bunch of transgender monkies slapping one another on the bottocks with pink gloves, have they no idea?

Firstly, I'd like to know what has brought this change on. Secondly, why they think that young people are any less qualified to drive a hi-po car than any other person that comes along. Last of all, why target young people?

Main causes of accidents are

1) Fatigue 2) Road conditions 3)Speed

1 and 2 can cause any body, in any car, of any age to crash. And speed? well, most cars can speed eh?

What these retard ploticans need to do, if they want to 'save lives' is give us young people adiquate (sp?) training. Not just "road rules", but driver training courses ect.

I am 16 and am about to get my liscence, but I have raced go-karts and superkarts for 3 years-ish now, and through that I have learnt alot about driving, taking note of my surroundings and learning about how other drivers act and react.

Either quit the false act, governments, or actually follow through and prevent a major cock-up.

[chris]

The government may just as well be a bunch of transgender monkies slapping one another on the bottocks with pink gloves, have they no idea?

Firstly, I'd like to know what has brought this change on. Secondly, why they think that young people are any less qualified to drive a hi-po car than any other person that comes along. Last of all, why target young people?

Main causes of accidents are

1) Fatigue 2) Road conditions 3)Speed

1 and 2 can cause any body, in any car, of any age to crash. And speed? well, most cars can speed eh?

What these retard ploticans need to do, if they want to 'save lives' is give us young people adiquate (sp?) training. Not just "road rules", but driver training courses ect.

I am 16 and am about to get my liscence, but I have raced go-karts and superkarts for 3 years-ish now, and through that I have learnt alot about driving, taking note of my surroundings and learning about how other drivers act and react.

Either quit the false act, governments, or actually follow through and prevent a major cock-up.

It was brought on by a number of recent car accidents involving young people, and higher performance cars. One was a Nissan Skyline GT-R, a car owned by the kids father, and the kid drove it while the father was away.

The kid was speeding. Consider those, and the government wants to be seen to be taking a tough stance on "law and order", and on saving the lives of the young people of the state, et voila! You arrive at the current knee-jerk reaction from Carl Scully, and the normally not too bad NSW Labor government.

[chris]

Y'know chris, I wouldn't be surprised if a properly solicited "driver education" campaign would indeed win votes. I think where the votes matter to current politicians is in that knowing almost no young people vote (a TRUE disgrace to our generation), so they prey upon the parents and older folk. Man that is cowardly! I am not a politician, nor do my thoughts towards street safety reflect upon any political ideology, but I do believe that if one was to truely try to "win votes", they'd be better focussed on getting Gen-X and younger to actually vote in the first place, and forget about attracting the fogies. The whole driving thing may ultimately be a way to attract younger voters, now there's food for thought. I know that if I was 15 and heard of this sort of oppressive action from the government, I would rally my older brothers and their friends to get them off their duffs and actually go to the voting polls! At the same time, if I was 18 and was able to vote, I would make damn sure that I capitalized on my right to vote. Maybe I am just old fashioned, or perhaps even somewhat of a hopeless romantic, but with the people I know, any effort to "win" votes by introducing a ban like we are discussing would be met with revolutionary force. amd would ultimately lose votes. Then again, Canada's voters are a bit askew from the norm in more ways than one, so I hope I am no just blowing smoke here.

I wish people here in Australia thought like you. But some seem to have tunnel vision, and selective deafness. :(

The non-voting thing in Australia is not an issue however, since it is mandatory to vote. We don't have null elections due to low voter turn-out fortunately.

[Commander]

Isn't mandatory voting kind of self-defeating? What if you don't like any party? I mean that's like someobody forcing you to select from a few chocolate bars when you hate them all. It's good that the voting gets done and all, but really, if you are forced to vote, many people would probably not take it seriously and just pick randomly, so wouldn't the outcome ultimately be the same as if very few people turned out at the polls anyway? To me, voting is a privilege, and it pains me to know that a lot of my friends don't even bother going to the polls. Worse yet is when they have the gall to bitch about the government, and I ask "well did you vote?", and they reply "well, no". :slap: I know that when I was in school, the importance of voting was never taught. I would be curious to know if it is taught in schools today. I think it is an important issue. =[

[VQ]

You do a dummy vote or a donkey vote then and it gets voided.....

If there was a poarty speccially for the interests of motor vehichlists, then I'd vote for them and try to get my parent to vote for them too.

[Commander]

You do a dummy vote or a donkey vote then and it gets voided.....

Exactly, so it serves no real purpose to make voting madatory, the results would pretty much be the same as if it was optional.

[VQ]

But you still have the inconvenience.

[blackice111288]

Good point blackice. I really hope it gets the boot rather than passed though. Discrimination is discrimination, be it racial, gender related, or based on age. You start a snowball rolling once you allow one form of discimination.

We just recently won a huge battle against the insurance companies here. Previously, your insurance rates were based on your age and gender, where young males got the crap end of the stick. This was finally deemed an act of discrimination, and the rules were revamped where your insurance rates now depend on your driving record alone. This means that a 40 year old woman with several speeding tickets or collisons will pay more insurance than a 16 year old male with a clean drivers license. This came into effect after the graduated license was introduced, which means for the beginning period of your licensing (first couple of years I think), you must abide by certain curfews and whatnot.
when did this happen? we're still paying an arm and a leg for insurance! oh wait, i just remembered, you live in Canada, im in Florida.

[blackice111288]

oh,yeah, also, VQ- if you go ahead and get your caprice now, you should be ok. they cant ban you from something you already have, i forgot the term they use in government, its called a retroactive law or some thing like that. Basically, if they make a law outlawing a certain thing (in this case, powerfull cars) after you have already got it, the law doesn't apply to you, or the other knucle heads that are the cause for this law to even be passed; making it kinda pointless in the first place.


I think the way you all's driving liscencing process is kinda pointless, with the plates and all, cause as vq said, people just take off thier restrictive plates, or, if a lot of the kids are in their parents cars anyways.

The hot rod craze will live on, even if its in Ford Fiestas ANd pug 106's instead of Skylines and Monaro's so really its pointless to outlaw a certian class of cars. I'm really interested in what the Manufactures will have to say about this. im sure this ban will cut deeply into their sales profits of sports cars.

[chris]

Not so many young people do have new Monaros, since they tend to have very good resale values, so 2nd hand purchases tend to be more expensive than usual. If they do have new ones, it's probably dads car, or they've managed to make a decent amount of money to afford one. A new one is almost AUD$60,000, or a bit more if you add some options.

But you'd be more worried about the young people behind the wheel of the old Monaros though, since they are not as safe, nor do they have such well developed handling. Look at the old ones and they sit on such narrow tyres in comparison.

But as I said before, it's more a media beat-up more than anything else.

[VQ]

well, Dylan owns a HQ ute now, it's got a 253 in it, but is planning on a 302 chev then a alloy 500 big block, and I think he does plan n upgrading the stock brakes to Vt twin piston at least, it's a cheapish retrofit, and you get the benifits of twin pot brakes and larger discs. It's still not adequte for a 500, but for a 302 chev it is. And also, most people stick on as wide rims and tyres they can fit, even mini tubbing it, which is legal.

[chris]

Two more "P" plate accidents overnight, one in Sydney, one in Melbourne, both said to be speed related. One of them involved a Holden Commodore, the other a Nissan Skyline (both are by now the main targets of the media campaign against powerful cars)

And with that, there are now calls to ban young drivers from legal, on-track drag-racing.

Hehe, it just gets better and better doesn't it? :rolleyes:

[blackice111288]

"And with that, there are now calls to ban young drivers from legal, on-track drag-racing."

they cant ban you from private tracks, thats beyond their jurisdiction! there power stops with public roads- the ones they are politicaly in charge of, they have no right to ban something like that! all its gonna do is waste millions of tax dollars to enforce banning young drivers on track, and increase the number of racing on the road, since they cant go to a track if they wanted to! the government sucks, dont it? how about we all chip in the few bucks we have and start our own country? eh?:)

[VQ]

That's an outrage!! banning LEGAL street racing, because orf some idiots racing ON THE BLOODY STREET!!!?? I'm Outraged, is there anyway i can complain or voice my concern, this is jsut taking things WAAAAY to far, they are forcing us to be more and more underground aren't they?

[VQ]

P platers are the flavour of the week. The vast majority do do the right things, and kudos to them. When society becomes desensitised to these headlines the news media will go in search of other topics to generate sales. None of these companies run this info for the public good. What was the stat I saw flashed by us last night, something like one toddler drowning in a pool every two or three days. Does that mean we should ban toddlers from pools, or perhaps ban pools from people who have toddlers? No. It's just a bloody unfortunate side effect of the complex society WE have chosen to live in. We've got to be vigilent to survive, and sometimes we let our guards down and the consequences are irreversible. Legislation will not help us during those moments. Awareness and training (remember the education system we all pour our tax dollars into) is the best we're going to be able to do, and support networks for when things go wrong.

So true what was said there, also, http://www.ozdrive.org/ has updated their website I think, there is another site like this as well I'm pretty sure too.

[Commander]

No they can't keep people off of private speedways, I don't know how the government thinks it will be able to get away with something like that. Somebody in office isn't seeing the big picture. By making track racing illegal, things will only get worse on the streets, it shouldn't take a brain giant to see that. Man, politicians sure exemplify the meaning of "tunnel vision" don't they? :wall:

[VQ]

They are also basically all over 40, with no idea of whats really happening.

[chris]

And a nicely done website too. -^

I find some of these ideas they are coming up with even more silly.

I have no problems with tough penalties for those speeding on public roads (ie, going 20km/hr or more above the speed-limit, not 1.5km/hr above it), but it's absolute madness to then try and ban young people from racing on race-tracks.

Where would the likes of Mark Webber, Ryan Briscoe be with this sort of thing. They had to start somewhere.

It's frankly amazing how we've had this fast-car scare creep up in such a short period of time.

Perhaps we should send everyone to the BMW driver training programs, make them all do the advanced course, or something like the even better Master GT Maserati" program.

The maserati program is one of the best. It focuses on Maserati only and it is very hard work - but the lessons learned can be applied to everything. And there are quite a few lessons learned that the average young driver with his/her fast car wouldn't be aware of, until they found out the hard/painful way.

The biggest of those is that you aren't perfect, and you make mistakes.

[VQ]

But the problem is, not everyone can afford the huge costs to go to those training schools, it needs to be that good, but cheap enough that everyone can get it, ok, a bit more then what it is now, but no more then $500 for a two day course.

[chris]

They are also basically all over 40, with no idea of whats really happening.

The one politician who had it right was the National Party leader John Anderson (who I usually don't support because of his alliances with the conservative-Liberal party). But then again, he's not the average sort of polician either.. If you look in the background sometimes when he is giving media conferences in the parliament car park, you'll see an almost neon green coloured Holden Commodore SS - that's his car, and he drives it himself, rather than having electing to be driven around.

[chris]

But the problem is, not everyone can afford the huge costs to go to those training schools, it needs to be that good, but cheap enough that everyone can get it, ok, a bit more then what it is now, but no more then $500 for a two day course.

Maybe it needs to be subsidised (that is, the BMW one). The Maserati one is excellent, but it is based in Italy.

I always reckon however that the Italians do this sort of thing very well. Be warned, if you intend on participating in that Maserati one, every one of your runs is with a video-camera watching your every mistake, and with a telemetry feed to back it up with hard evidence. :o

Another idea which is a good one is the now more popular "track-day". In the UK for instance, some places are offering individuals the chance to drive pretty quick cars like...

- Lotus Elise
- Porsche 911 Carrera 4
- Ferrari F355 Berlinetta

... quickly on a race-track while being supervised. They do specify a limit, but if they recognise that someone has a bit of talent, they will let you go a a lot faster. Those are a good idea because the people get the need for speed out of their system in a safe, controlled environment, rather than on the public roads.

[VQ]

Lol, cool, the rest are just chauferred around in their V8 Caprice's and LTD's the whole support Australian made things is that, otherwise, they'd be in bloody Rolls Royces and Maybechs (spl?) because they are that self indulgent and like spending our money on everything other then where they get it from, like speeding fines go back INTO roads, instead of pockets.

[blackice111288]

because they are that self indulgent and like spending our money on everything other then where they get it from :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

just like how when i go buy a video game,i walk in thinking im gonna pay 50 bucks, but i end up spending 65 (and i thought it was only 7% tax) but we cant get potholes filled, or stuff badly needed at school, like new tools for our autoshop, but criminal justice gets a whole new freakin building. I mean get serious, i cant ever find a 12 mm for a 3/8's ratchet (1 of the 3 we have) but they get a new facility?

[VQ]

That's cos kids are idiots and steal parts, we have that, we don't use our auto area cos of lack of funding, but other places like in woodwork.

I was more talking about the fact we have the highest revenue in the world from speed cameras because of our 3km over the limit fines, which is just revunue raising no matter how much the pollies say it isn't.

Our street is a long windy street inbetween two main roads and a very popular place for idiots to zoom along at 100km in the middle of the night, not much anymore, but in the past, the speed limit was reduced to 50 and people still didn't listen, so now they are fitting intersection thing to slow them down at nearly EVERY T intersection, it'll start sometime in Jan or Feb I think, but finally, where we live on the street is the fastest levelest corner for people so finally we won't have complelte idiots zooming past both ways (the whole street is hilly really)

[wello]

opps
I better not post in here I'm over 40 so I would have no idea of what is happening around me either
shame on us old buggers trying to look after you young fella's :p

[chris]

Looking after is one thing, but the NSW government is not addressing the problem at all. Proper education is the only thing that will change anything.

The current plans would do little to change anything. It is unreasonable to suggest that a young driver would not drive irresponsibly just because his/her car had 40kW less power. They'll still drive dangerously, regardless of the car.

We just have to make sure that they get the need for speed out of their system in a safe, controlled environment. That, combined with good driver education, and harsher penalties for grossly exceeding the speed limit will do the trick.

[Smokey!]

It was brought on by a number of recent car accidents involving young people, and higher performance cars. One was a Nissan Skyline GT-R, a car owned by the kids father, and the kid drove it while the father was away.

That kinda says it all dosnīt it? The FATHER who OWNS the FAST CAR gives the KEYS to his YOUNG SON .
I think the father has as big a part of the guilt for that accident as the son since it was him who misjudjed his sons driving abillities.

Kinda makes you wonder if the reason politicians target the not-so-young people with the "young people and fast cars dont mix talk" is because they known they can make them (the fathers) feel safe by putting the guilt on someone else than themselves rather than admitting that they too can drive reckless AND have part of the guilt as well.

Just thinking out loud..

[MattB]

That kinda says it all dosnīt it? The FATHER who OWNS the FAST CAR gives the KEYS to his YOUNG SON .
I think the father has as big a part of the guilt for that accident as the son since it was him who misjudjed his sons driving abillities.

..

not tryin to b picking, but the son stole the car keys, his father didnt know he was goin to drive it..

[VQ]

The rego on it was EVLR34, hardly what a parent would give for a rego of a Skyline, it was the kids car, but they are saying it's the Dad's car cos it was registered under his name imo.

[chris]

It was the fathers car, not the sons car. The father should have taken the keys with him, IMO.

[VQ]

If I had such a potent weapon of a car, I wouldn't be leaving the keys around either, and I've have tracking on it too.

[Smokey!]

not tryin to b picking, but the son stole the car keys, his father didnt know he was goin to drive it..

Ah, didnt knew that. STILL that dosnt exclude the father from beeing guilty of some sort. As chris mentioned he should have taken them (keys) with him. But the son is the most responsible of cause, im just saying that the father shouldnt go free like he had nothing to do with it at all.

[Wazza]

Sure, he could have taken better protection in hiding the keys, or taking them with him. Or giving them to a relative, in case there was some emergency that the car needed to be used.

My dad has often left his car behind, and travelled over to Australia about 3 times in the past 5 years. Each time, he's left his main keys back on the bench, and the spare keys in the drawer, and either a powerful EF V8 Fairmont, or recently VY SS. Guess there's some trust there. And I haven't EVER taken them out without permission. I had driven the Fairmont 3 times, before he realised I wasn't insured as I was under 25. And said I can't ever have the SS until I'm 25. Fair enough. :Peace:

[VQ]

LOL, I can't drive my Dad's golf under the curent insurance policy by myself till I'm 30, but I'm able to drive it on my L's as we found out recently, so 6 months without the golf...