This was supposedly to be a Supra replacement. Word is that it sort of "got out of control" and ended up being a much more focused very high performance car.
I heard it was to be front engined, but looking at this, I'm not so sure. It looks like it could be mid-engined, rather like a Lambo Miura (it also had a long nose, but with the engine in the middle). And it has some real ground-effects happening as well - note the venturi tunnels at the back!
This is looking like a quite serious car, and not just merely an NSX rival.
VQ
10-12-2004, 11:31 PM
Wait, Toyota's dropping both the Celica and MR2, and yet they are planning to relese this thing??? uhh what the.
Venom800tt
10-12-2004, 11:33 PM
I saw it last week. Sounds pretty cool car. I hope it looks good underneath the camo :p
And I hope they race it internationally. :D
Nappe1
10-13-2004, 12:36 AM
it's a bit too big to be Supra follower (rumored to be available 2006-2007 time frame)
it has to be 2000GT follower. At last.
as what comes to engine, it can be powered by anything from 3.5 Liter V6 (was in Volta prototype, producing 450 bhp) all way up to 5.5 Liter V12 that is in Century model available in home market. ( with different tuning of course. I also like the sound of 4.3 liter V8 in Lexus LS/SC430 ;) )
it is definately xxxxGT where x-letters stands for engine size in ccm.
it is sad that 3500GT never got permission to go on production. it would have been the real japanese supercar.
there has been quite while rumours about Toyota SuperCar prototypes running around in japan on the factory's testing ovals and some sources have been stating that this car just waits for a first victory in Formula 1. Hard to say if this is true.
(and since Salo / McNish times, it looks like the team is getting back on track after few sidestep years. So, I'd say with a bit luck we might see Toyota in top 3 with 2 or 3 seasons.)
lewi
10-13-2004, 12:51 AM
Looks cool. Pity bout the $100,000 price tag..:(
Nappe1
10-13-2004, 01:17 AM
Looks cool. Pity bout the $100,000 price tag..:(
2000GT was VERY expensive back in '67... if I recal right, with price of 2000GT you could have get 2 Porsche 911S 'es. (which had comparable performance back then.)
Also, the factory version of 2000GT wasn't very top tuned. There's still 4 Shelby 2000GT's in the world that has much much much more aggressive tuning. (Toyota was working with Shelby back then. Soon after that, racing cars like "7 Turbo" evolved so much that Toyota decided continue racing development by their own. This era ended on early 70's when two drivers died on preseason testing for Can-Am and last 7 Turbo was never seen on grand prix. The last generation "7 Turbo" was a real beast. tubular steel body with fibreglass panels made this single seater weight less than 600 kg. 5.0 liter V8 with 2 Turbo Chargers gave around 900 bhp output. with 5 gear box, this devil took 0-60 mph less than 4 seconds and top speed was around 360 kph! and the year was 1972.)
and I still wonder why no one has made this car to any racing game? :)
VQ
10-13-2004, 02:08 AM
that engine type has been done, OHV Holden V8, with twin turbos.
chris
10-13-2004, 07:31 AM
2000GT was VERY expensive back in '67... if I recal right, with price of 2000GT you could have get 2 Porsche 911S 'es. (which had comparable performance back then.)
Also, the factory version of 2000GT wasn't very top tuned. There's still 4 Shelby 2000GT's in the world that has much much much more aggressive tuning. (Toyota was working with Shelby back then. Soon after that, racing cars like "7 Turbo" evolved so much that Toyota decided continue racing development by their own. This era ended on early 70's when two drivers died on preseason testing for Can-Am and last 7 Turbo was never seen on grand prix. The last generation "7 Turbo" was a real beast. tubular steel body with fibreglass panels made this single seater weight less than 600 kg. 5.0 liter V8 with 2 Turbo Chargers gave around 900 bhp output. with 5 gear box, this devil took 0-60 mph less than 4 seconds and top speed was around 360 kph! and the year was 1972.)
and I still wonder why no one has made this car to any racing game? :)
Sauber employed the 5L V8 with two turbos engine idea extremely successfully in Group C. Of course they tuned it just for a very conservative 720bhp - but it did that with frustrating (for the opposition) reliability and economy. :)
Sauber first introduced it on the C8, and then it appeared again on C9, and C11. (last of the ground-shaking/window rattling V8 Saubers).
Porsche also tried the twin-turbo on huge engine idea, with a 5.4L flat-12 twin-turbo 917/30 Spyder, again for Can-am. It was tossed out on a fuel economy rule.. The 917/30 had to move around not just itself, and the driver, but 400 Litres of fuel as well. It was successful machine, in stark contrast to the never raced flat-16 (a physically huge engine!) prototype.
I've also heard Toyotas new supercar is V10 powered, but derived from a future Lexus V8 power-planet. Think of it maybe as modular engine design I suppose.
A V12 would sound far nicer, since 12 cylinders always have a pleasant sound, but 10 cylinders is more practical for a very high performance engine.
Justin Martin
10-13-2004, 12:20 PM
As close as the rear wheels are to the cabin, it would nearly have to be a transverse mid-engine layout, also like the Muira, if it is mid-engined.
If this is front engined, and is some sort of super-Supra with the V10 in place of a standard inline-six, the front end looks a tad too short to be the traditional big-six Supra layout. The angle could be decieving, though.
blackice111288
10-13-2004, 08:20 PM
and I still wonder why no one has made this car to any racing game?
Sega GT 2002 for Xbox has a stock version.
this car is very nice, but i'd like to see a streetable supra replacement i can acually sfford by the time i retire, and with a Twin turbo I-6.
Not only will this car be a NSX rival, it'll be a viper rival, 911 rival, shoot, any sportscar you can name and i bet this car will put up a good fight. 500hp @ 3000lbs-, and possible MR layout? thats like a MR2 on steroids
chris
10-13-2004, 10:21 PM
I think he was referring to Toyota's can-am car. (or should I call it "brute").
VQ
10-14-2004, 12:09 AM
Only the Brute class cars are brUTE's Chris ;)
chris
10-14-2004, 01:16 AM
Not really, I think that lot would tremble in fear if a Mclaren M8D, or another one with a 9.26 litre (yes, 9.3 litres almost!!) engine rolled up beside them.
The engines were brutal. :eek: The 9.3L V8 was a qualifying special, lasting 3 laps only, but enough to get pole position. It was the era of the mountain engines - huge alloy V8's of anything from 7 to almost 10 litres, or equally large V12's from Ferrari, or twin-turbo flat-12's from Porsche.
Here is a typical engine, the 8.4 litre Chevrolet V8 from the Mclaren M8F:
The 9.3L V8 I mentioned produced almost 780bhp@6400rpm. :eek: Then Porsche arrived with a 917 capable of producing 1100bhp in race-form. In qualifying, they could crank it up for +1500bhp, and above 1700Nm of torque!! Absolutely crazy. Keep in mind that this sort of engine power went into something with only around 800kg of weight.
0-200km/hr?? Oh, in around 5 seconds.. :yikes: Top speed? Around 380km/hr, even with a huge rear-wing! Unbelievable wild monsters. And they noise they made, oh my god - an almighty earth-shaking, window rattling roar.
For old cars, seeing what they can do still leaves me shaking my head in amazement. Almost anything went in that series of racing.
VQ
10-14-2004, 02:50 AM
Funny thing is Chris, nowadays, you can get 700hp out of a old Holden V8, albeit with a supercharger and it might not be in slimline body's etc, but that's beside the point, even better is that their legal :P
And the 500 Big blocks still realiably make 700-800hp n/a for the drags, with carby's and all revving not much more then 6000 rpm, and then driving the car home, for years it can happen and they still, well last.
And yes, they are pretty spectactuler, but not everyone can get them, which makes street machine's popular, because while it might not go 380km/h that's a good thing, because where CAN you go that fast in Aus other then the salt flats.
chris
10-14-2004, 05:51 AM
Reminds me, some of the old Can-am cars had some funny devices on them. :)
Chapparal had a device on one of his cars which allowed the driver to manually control the rear-wing angle from the cockpit. Apparently the driver would hold the lever forward while going along a straight, making the rear wing near flat, and not producing much downforce, while in corners, the driver would let the lever go and the rear wing would change to its angled position.. ;)
I believe that was banned in the interests of safety. Those cars were quite awesome considering they were probably the last of the non ground effects sports-cars.
Chapparal returned again, with an even more wacky machine looking like a great box on wheels, using a pair of extractor fans powered by a seperate and unreliable snowmobile motor to pull air out from under the car in an effort to increase downforce. It worked, while the fans worked of course. If the motor powering them should fail while the car is negotiating a fast corner at its fan assisted speed.... (you can contemplate the probably horrific results.) :eek:
That one was also banned I think. But the late Clive Dennis Hulme reckoned he had a solution for the Chapparal vacuum cleaner on 4 wheels if it were following his Mclaren - he'd simply throw a towel out in front of it, and hope the Chapparal sucked the towel up in its fans. :D
Shadow had an even stranger can-am model, the Mk.1 AVS with tiny 10" wheels:
This car was later updated with a massive, and very unsubtle rear wing. But while a interesting idea to reduce parasitic aero-drag, it was ultimately not entirely competitive. I heard former Porsche chief-of-design Harm Lagaay had ideas of acquiring one, and reportedly knew how to solve its problems..
The man is something of a racing enthusiast, owning the one and only Eflin ME5 - a car that while very fast, is something of a lightweight in the Can-am power race.
Chevrolet however was to provide some teams with a huge turbocharged V8 engine designed to exact revenge on the uber-Panzers from Weissach, but nothing happened with it, and some teams reverted back to the n.a. V8 engines of up to 9.3L (Mclaren M20 used this giant Chevrolet V8 engine)
blackice111288
10-14-2004, 02:10 PM
yeah i was talking about the Toyota 2000gt.
9.3 liters? &(!! do you have any sound clips?
Funny thing is Chris, nowadays, you can get 700hp out of a old Holden V8, albeit with a supercharger and it might not be in slimline body's etc, but that's beside the point, even better is that their legal :P
you can get that much power out of Rb26's and SR20's and 2JZ-GTE's, but as cool as they (and the holdens) are, they cant compare to the old race cars, cause they were just flat out amazing. they were still learning new things about race cars where we already know everything. their cars were like the evolution of supercars, and all the things they did were original and interesting. im not trying to knock what your saying, im just saying Street rods and Imports aren't on the same level as the classic racers.
chris
10-14-2004, 05:21 PM
yeah i was talking about the Toyota 2000gt.
9.3 liters? &(!! do you have any sound clips?
Imagine your typical big American racing V8 engine, huge, and very loud. I've heard Mclaren M8's before and the sound is not something you forget.
VQ
10-15-2004, 09:46 PM
I thought you didn't like the sound of a V8 Blackice? I'd imagine it woud sound as good if not better then a supercharged big block in a muscle car.
chris
10-15-2004, 10:56 PM
They just roar - the sound goes right through you, rather like an F1 engine does. (F1 = 130dB)
They sort of rumble along on the rolling start, and then when they get going, woah god how noisy they are. :eek: I did have a sound recording of a Mclaren M8D, but I can't find it sadly. They started it up, and let it idle for a little bit, and then started revving it a bit. Quite deafening.
The acceleration of them is absolutely stupendous, even the slower ones are absolutely extreme, then you get the top cars with 8.8 and 9.3L engines with 750+bhp. The Shadow DN4 had 850bhp from its giant Chev V8 engine. Porsche by that time had withdrawn from the series.
Even Ferrari entered with the 612 and later the 712 Can-am, a car featuring the largest engine Ferrari has ever built, a 6.9L 12 cylinder with 750hp at 8000rpm. The engine was derived from the 512S/512M 5L engine. The power is impressive when it only has to move 680kg. :)
And the Mclaren M20, with 9.3L only weighed 678kg. There was also a turbocharged version of the big Chev engine, but most teams declined to use it, sticking with the proven n.a. engines.
VQ
10-15-2004, 11:03 PM
Why do we always talk in hp? we know that it is torque that makes the thing go and lose traction and makes it hard to handle, so whats the torque like?
chris
10-15-2004, 11:38 PM
Some cars can have big torque and still be slow as a snail, since the torque rush comes and goes within such a short rev-range. (typical turbo-diesel performance for instance).
The M20 Mclaren with 787bhp had also 1000Nm of torque at around 4500rpm. Not bad for early-to-mid 1970's. Far inferior to the massively powerful 917/30 however, but nobody really had an answer to the outrageous Porsche. The Porsche was dyno-tested with +1500hp, and over 1700Nm of torque.
That car was probably the absolute extremity of performance in those days. Still is, even today. You'd never get away with building such a machine today with racing regulations being so much more restrictive.
VQ
10-16-2004, 12:56 AM
yeah, the have reasons for making it restrictive of course, but that is a lot of torque.
Also, the new car Turbo diesels have decent performance now adays, the new 3.0 litre V6 TDi I've read is the most advanced diesel so far and Audi Aus is looking to sell it even in the A4! VW has it in the Toureg, but of course our family hates 4x4's so that's not an option.
blackice111288
10-22-2004, 03:35 PM
you can have a lot of torque and still go slow as heck ( turbodiesel trucks and ect) hp puts the torque to use.
They just roar - the sound goes right through you, rather like an F1 engine does. (F1 = 130dB
thats a sound violation ticket right there (100db limit in USA) :)
i promise i heard a civic that loud. but it actually was fast, it was one of the fastest cars in town back in North Carolina. it sounded like a GSX-R at full throttle, a very pleasant sound (or roar) to my ears.....
VQ
10-23-2004, 03:50 AM
Yeah, 90dB here is the legal limit, 96 is for residential areas for any racing at all, even stuff like the f1's and V8 Supercars in residential areas in places like albert park and Sandown park, it has to be under a certain db level.
blackice111288
10-25-2004, 02:59 PM
wow, that sucks. i dont know if the tracks here have decible limits. i'd have to look into that.
Justin Martin
10-25-2004, 04:53 PM
wow, that sucks. i dont know if the tracks here have decible limits. i'd have to look into that.
I think they usually do here, unless they're way out in the middle of nowhere. At least road courses and autocrosses do, i'm not into drag racing, so I can't tell you about those tracks.
blackice111288
10-25-2004, 08:42 PM
only thing i know for sure is that street cars competing in autocrosses must have a full cat-back exhaust that is street legal.