F1 results at Spa

[DC_Tox]

Hi friends,

I'm so excited about the F1 GP results at Spa, that I must write something :D

I'll simply post my personal votes for the various actors of the thrilling event...real action on the track, although not always the kind of action we need to see &(

Ferrari - McLaren: 10 -^
Both cars were simply perfect, two steps above all the others, including the Williams that could have done better, but failed.

Raikkonen: 10 :applaud:
Great driving and talent

Barrichello: 9 -^
He had a real bad luck with that messy start from Webber...but did a tremendous race, helped by the multiple pace cars, and took the podium at last.

Schumacher: 8 :)
In all the mess that was around today, he showed the skills of a real master....avoided contact more than once, when other drivers were messing around him. At race restarts, when he had worse tyres, he avoided the rush and the danger. Also in the pass of Montoya, he didn't do the error of Trulli and saved his race. Looks like he was slow, letting all this people go by, but at the end he earned the second place and the Championship. A real master.

The 2004 Spa track: 10 :love:
The new parts with asphalt at the trickiest turn exits (Eau Rouge and Blanchimont) make this track safer and faster. Also the new pit entry is much better than the 2000 version we raced at SNR.

Coulthard: 5 :(
He had a wonderful car today. No need to make that stupid error at the Raidillon/Kemmel

Montoya and Webber: 2 :nono:
JPS could have been the best driver of this race with a perfect, thrilling pass at the Bus Stop against Schumi. But he wanted to do too much and tried again with Trulli, when it was not the case, definitely. Poor Trulli lost his race because of this stupid move from JPS.
Webber did even worse, hitting Barrichello at turn 1 and making his life impossible for the whole race. Not happy with this, he raced on without the front wing and caused the dangerous series of events that led to the mess at the Eau Rouge

Track Direction: 4 :no:
They took out the pace car too many times and for too long. We watched almost half of the time a slow procession that was getting nervous and nervous....let away the tyre problems with it.

Track Cleaning: 3 =[
With all the time they had to clean the track, with 3, 4 or even 5 laps with the pace car, they could re-do the whole asphalt as well. But no, they left so many debris that many cars had serious problems on them.

Tyres: 2 :eek:
Bridgestone suffered much for the pace car slow-downs...but Michelin had some tremendous integrity problems I hope they stop this trend, before someone starts to have serious problems....wasn't Ralf accident enough to stop it?

Given all the mess and unsportmanship we saw, I'm very happy with our race at SNR on the same track, where we may have connection, chat and yahoo problems....but we have fair and clean racers!!!

Tox

[chris]

I was expecting a rash of F1 sucks comments.

Although I agree on the safety car. That was ridiculous. Safety car laps should not count towards race laps.

[Y2kGoofball]

this was the only F1 race ive ever really watched from start to finish, once I started I couldnt turn away!

I must say the safety car shouldnt add to the race laps, the V8 supercars used to do that (the lap counter froze) but theyve started doing it too and last year there was an instance of where a race finished under the safety car

[FeZ]

Yes true, quite an entertaining race.

Loads of crashes and actually overtaking on the track for a change. ^_^
They mentioned that when MS did overtake one of the Benetons that this was the 1st overtaking MS did on track this season &( Not sure if that is true, but if you compare this race to the last ones it may well be.

Raikkonen was flying, and surprisingly his McLaren did not blow up or fall apart -^

I would like to know if MS could not catch him or if he let him drive and was expecting his car to fail anyway :D

Nice going also by Jaguars Christian Klien, that kid seems to really fight for his cockpit next season -^

As mentioned above, safety car should not count as racelaps, that would make it more interesting as it could change pitstop strategy and would make it all more "non-boring" (don't want to call it exciting :) )

[Chaul]

One British journalist promised to run around Silverstone naked if McLaren won a race this season, and Raikkonen has promised to turn up and see the show after making him eat his words. "Let's hope that he will keep his word," said Raikkonen, whose team boss Ron Dennis has already promised to put the event on. "I definitely will go and hopefully it is raining heavily so it will be even more fun!"

I saw this on www.f1-live.com /AFP. That oughta teach the reporter not to underestimate one of the top teams. ^_^

[chris]

Fez: Michael's problems were Bridgestone tyres. They would not heat up, and at one point you could see them flexing on the wheel rim as he went through a corner slowly.

So I suppose we will see the FIA now finding every excuse it can to bring out the safety car in order to fix the races...

[jelly]

They mentioned that when MS did overtake one of the Benetons that this was the 1st overtaking MS did on track this season &( Not sure if that is true, but if you compare this race to the last ones it may well be.

A lot has been made of this overtaking in the pits thing, but I do not see what all the fuss is about. Pit stops are a part of F1 aren't they ? Especally more so now with the parc ferme rule. So if teams use pits to pass - that's racing.
And anyway, that 1st track overtaking move comment is not true because off the top of my head, I can think of the 0.00 secs overtaking of Barrichello at USA. Unless the Indy straightaways also count as part of the pit lane.

[chris]

Pit stops were indeed introduced to try and stop the processional races of the late 80's.

[lewi]

Webber did even worse, hitting Barrichello at turn 1 and making his life impossible for the whole race. Not happy with this, he raced on without the front wing and caused the dangerous series of events that led to the mess at the Eau Rouge


Yeah, I think webber buggered up on this occasion. But hey, haven't all great racing drivers done so at a point in their career? ;)

This has to be one of the best races i've seen in the past couple of years!!! Lots of overtaking and more competitive front end did the job for me!

[DC_Tox]

Searched "F1 sucks" on Google and it came up with 51,900 results. Good one Ferrari. Good one Schumi.
It's just beacuse you got the results of both "F1" and "sucks" separately, summed up.

If you search for "F1 sucks" (with quotes) you get only 393 results, much less than the 760 "Amazing F1", or the 1390 hit for "I love F1" :D

[chris]

Oh every racing series sucks (or is hopeless, or whatever other comment you wish to insert here) when your favourite driver or team isn't winning.

That's what it is now.

If it were Jensen Button (or any British driver) winning every race, in a British car, there would be nothing wrong with F1 in the eyes of a great many people.

[jelly]

From lewi's sig:

Searched "F1 sucks" on Google and it came up with 51,900 results. Good one Ferrari. Good one Schumi.

Let me just add that in blaming Mr Schumacher and Ferrari for F1s current state of competitiveness ( or lack thereof ), you are actually blaming the one outfit that are actually good at their job!!!!!!!! I think all reasonable people would agree that to do that would be a gross injustice.

The blame lies at the doors of Williams and McLaren and to a lesser extent, the other teams whose R&D is limited by funds. Williams and Mclaren both had greatness, and they both fell asleep while Ferrari made huge inroads into their dominance and went on to pass them both. I have a preference for McLaren but I am also a fan of Formula 1. Watching the red team and MS take the sport to new levels is great for me. Obviously I would prefer it to be done by McLaren ( like in 98 ), but you can't win them all.

Go McLaren!

[DC_Tox]

Williams and Mclaren both had greatness, and they both fell asleep while Ferrari made huge inroads into their dominance and went on to pass them both.
Speaking of money, With a bit of national pride I would add that Ferrari is a little ant, compared to the two giants who stand behind Williams and McLaren today: BMW and Mercedes. ;)

Go, Ferrari, go! :crowd:

[chris]

Don't forget Toyota either, who spends more than all of them. :eek:

So Ferrari isn't best because it spends the most, but rather, because it works the hardest, and favours loyalty and long-term relationships with all of its team members, rather than having drivers, mechanics and engineers coming and going with the seasons.

[lewi]

From lewi's sig:



Let me just add that in blaming Mr Schumacher and Ferrari for F1s current state of competitiveness ( or lack thereof ), you are actually blaming the one outfit that are actually good at their job!!!!!!!! I think all reasonable people would agree that to do that would be a gross injustice.

The blame lies at the doors of Williams and McLaren and to a lesser extent, the other teams whose R&D is limited by funds. Williams and Mclaren both had greatness, and they both fell asleep while Ferrari made huge inroads into their dominance and went on to pass them both. I have a preference for McLaren but I am also a fan of Formula 1. Watching the red team and MS take the sport to new levels is great for me. Obviously I would prefer it to be done by McLaren ( like in 98 ), but you can't win them all.

Go McLaren!

Yeah, true. I spose thats a good point, srz. :(

But their performance increase has been astounding :eek: In comparison, it only looks as if Ferrari have been improving when in fact, all teams have (par McLaren in the 1st half of the season). For example, Webber's qualifying lap time in this years Australian GP would have secured pole last year, and look where he qualified!! (I forget the exact possie, but it wasn't the 1st 3 rows i dont think).

But at Spa this year, Williams have showed a bit more decent pace (imo) and McLaren have show that they're back in the game. I hope it stays more like this, because it's exciting!!! :D

Oh, btw, I changed my sig =P

Lewi

[chris]

I do believe, and I think it was pretty obvious the difference at this GP was due to the simple fact of the Bridgestone tyres hating cold conditions, they just would not warm up, and the pressures of those tyres were so low.

In comparison, Michelin tyres hate hot conditions - they blister very badly.

Williams however has improved a little bit.

[Chaul]

I do believe, and I think it was pretty obvious the difference at this GP was due to the simple fact of the Bridgestone tyres hating cold conditions, they just would not warm up, and the pressures of those tyres were so low.

Notice how Kimi wasn't actually trying to warm up his tyres behind the safety car while Michael was near desperately trying to keep them warm enough. And when the SC finally left the track Kimi zoomed away and Michael fell behind on cold tyres for few laps. But in warmer climate the situation will be reversed. Had Renault and Williams finished the race, Michael might have had a tough time finishing even on the podium here. But obviously all he needed in this race was to finish 2 pts ahead of Barrichello.

[DC_Tox]

But at Spa this year, Williams have showed a bit more decent pace (imo) and McLaren have show that they're back in the game. I hope it stays more like this, because it's exciting!!! :D
This is something I can fully subscribe :)

[jelly]

@Lewi:

I am not here to have a go at your sigs. Even though I am having a go at your sigs, that is not why I am here. I am just pointing out a different way of looking at a couple things - IMO the right way as a F1 fan.

Now about your current sig:

IMO, ayrton was/is the greatest! Shumi just has all the records :D (Except the pole record....for now :( )

Schumacher at his peak Vs Senna at his peak: who would have won? Well, fate has conspired to rob us of that matchup, so that is not the issue. The issue is that with MS, we are witnesses to history being made, and a lot of history too. Imagine 50 years from now, your grandkids are going to be looking at the book of F1 world records and they will get to year 2004 and they will say:

``This Micheal Schumacher guy broke so many world records. He must have been amazing. You were so lucky to have witnessed him driving every 2 weeks. Please tell us how it felt to watch the great man, grandad.''

And you are going to say:

``Well....you know...err...I spent most of my time discrediting the man, that I didn't really realise what he was doing, so I don't quite remember much about it....''

This is history. It may not happen again, ever. Now isn't that a sobering thought. I also can't help but to think that if Senna, who was a more likable character, was blazing MS's trail, these records would have been celebrated more. But like I said, we have been robbed of the opportunity to find that out, so it is not relevant.

( You do not have to agree with me, and I am not trying to get you to change your sig. If you agree with me, you can change it. If you do not agree with me, then do not change it. I just wanted to point out a view that you may ( or may not ) have considered. I am not trying to pressure you at all :Peace: ).

[chris]

Schumi can do what Senna could, but without over-driving the car.

Some Senna fans (not all) can be like some Fangio fans, they have blinded vision. Senna was good, but he wasn't the be all and end all, and he wasn't absolutely the best in all respects. When he found religion so to speak, it could be argued he was even reckless. Other drivers would get out of his way for fear of being in an accident.

I think with Senna, many victories came with 120% of risk.

[jelly]

I was trying to be careful to avoid making a direct comparison between the two. I think both men should be celebrated as individials but not comparatively. A direct comparison could open a can of worms debate that we have no way of knowing for sure, anyway. Senna is already a celebrated talent, and correctly so. I just think what MS is doing for the sport is not getting the due recognition it deserves.

[chris]

I realise that. It was just my observation on Senna. He was fast, and won many times, but I wonder would he have won so much if he didn't take the big risk?

If I had to choose between Senna and Prost, I think I'd choose the professor, because he was a more steady driver. Prost won through thinking smart, rather than driving with such high degrees of risk.

Despite all that, I admire Senna.

As for Schumi versus Senna on the track, I don't know who would win in a straight fight. It'd depend on who is more consistent I think.

[lewi]

Im not trying to take anything away from Schumi, don't get me wrong. I just admired Senna's natural speed and, yes, i do agree that he was a risk taker, but that's why I like him.

In many many ways it's too hard to compare the two (based on resutlts for example) because at the moment, Schumacher is in a really dominent team (who, may I add, he helped to get to this level of dominence) and allthough he's driving amazingly, he could afford to drive at 80% of his potential and still win. Now, I wasn't around but If my facts are correct-ish then in about 1988 -'98 i think was when McLaren had a dominence similar to ferraris, this is when Prost and Senna collectively won all but 1 round of the championship. Senna had Prost to compete with so there was good competition with him.........now, that had completely no relevance and I was just wandering.

Anyways, onto another, prehaps more relavant point. The qualifying records are hard to compare because of the new 1 lap system that was introduced could very easily have set back Schumi's number of poles. So it's a bit hard to compare them on poles, although I'd like to :p

Last point, in Senna's era, technology wasn't as advanced as in Schumi's era so different drving styles were needed. Schumi's style is more conservative and smooth. He would be constantly in contact with his pits thoughout the race discussing car handling, pitting times etc. Whereas Senna would probably just have driven the wheels off the car at any cost, without worrying about things like atrategy too much.

Different eras, different driving styles, both awesome drivers. But I prefer Ayrton. Who could forget the '84 Monaco race in the Toleman? ;)

Cheers

Lewi

[Justin Martin]

Some Senna fans (not all) can be like some Fangio fans, they have blinded vision.

I'd say that applies equally well to MS fans, or fans of any driver for that matter. ;)

[jelly]

Indeed too hard to compare. Too much trouble to go to for an uncertain result. Here are 2 guys' takes on the subject of Ferrari and MS's dominance:
Mark Webber - http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2879536
Dave Richards - http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2872034

We do not have to like MS or Ferrari. Nor do we have to change our team/driver preferences. l said before, I would really prefer McLaren to be on top. It is more a case of: OK, I really like <a driver>, but I realise that MS is doing something a bit special for the sport which I would be crazy to miss out on. When all the dust settles, we are all fans of the sport and we want to see it taken to higher levels. The sport needs ( and has most often had ) benchmark setters for the rest to aim for. Otherwise everyone would be content with mediocraty ( spelling? ). Now THAT would be tedious.

[FeZ]

And anyway, that 1st track overtaking move comment is not true because off the top of my head, I can think of the 0.00 secs overtaking of Barrichello at USA. Unless the Indy straightaways also count as part of the pit lane.

When MS is passing Barichello its not called overtaking, thats team order )=)

[lewi]

It is more a case of: OK, I really like <a driver>, but I realise that MS is doing something a bit special for the sport which I would be crazy to miss out on.

Yeah, but this is in the present. It is really amazing though, the show of dominence. Allthough, now it looks to be closer. I think Webber really summed it up nicely.

Did anyone hear about Schumi's 300km/h crash @ monza yesterday? He's allright luckily, but his car looks a bit mangled =/ http://www.formula1.com/news/2145.html

Lewi

[chris]

When Schumi retires though we'll probably all be saying, would such and such driver have won if Schumi was still here sort of thing.

It won't be the same.

[jelly]

Because MS is a driver in the present and it is all happening so fast, it is hard to appreciate the magnitude of what he is doing. I think it will only be realised properly after he is gone. Shame though. So much to be savoured but people are looking in the wrong direction.

& Yeah, I can see MS still being a benchmark for a a bit of time after he is gone. But also the way things are going with the regulations, it is not too far fetched that when some of the current young drivers reach their peak, it might be a `too hard to compare' type situation, as it is now Vs Senna.

[chris]

I suppose the new motor and chassis regulations from mad Max next year will probably make comparisons even more difficult, unless Schumi also wins again, in which case everyone will say, F1 is useless, F1 is hopeless, F1 is whatever... And at that point Max Mosley will be tearing his hair out! ;)

I hope that does happen, so we can see what other sort of knee-jerk reaction we will see from mad Max.

The thing the organisers don't understand is that whatever car you give Schumi, he can win with it. From sports-cars (Sauber C11 for instance), to just about anything else, he drives them fast. Even Maserati the Maserati MC12.

The only car I don't think Schumi could do much with was the Sauber C291 "sport 3.5L" car. But that wasn't his problem, the flat-12 C291 was quite unreliable. If it were more reliable, it might have been a different story. Schumi at that time was only very young, maybe only 19 or 20 years old.

[lewi]

I thought Max was resigning from his position =O

[jelly]

Now this is an interesting situation. Out of the blue, he announced a resignation. I remember he went on TV here in Britain and he talked about the tedium of heaps of technical meetings, regulations and safety meetings etc with the teams, and the making of very slow progress being a factor. Then equally as suddenly he rescinds his resignation! :? . So what is he saying? Is he saying he suddenly finds those meetings interesting???? :confused: . I think there might have been some bullsh going on there. There was speculation that he was maybe using his `resignation' as a bargaining chip against the teams in those discussions. . . .meh.