Son of a Bush

[spiderman3]

Uh! Backwards!

C'mon! C'mon! C'mon! (c'mon!)

Oh no, struck by greased lightning
F'ed by the same last name, you know what?
China ain't never givin back that god damned plane
Must got this whole nation trained on some kennel ration
Refrain, the same train, full of cocaine, blows the brain
Have you forgotten? I've been through the first term of rotten
The father, the son and the holy Bush-shit we all in
Don't look at me, I ain't callin for no assasination
I'm just sayin, sayin
Who voted for that ******* of your nation?
Deja Bush, crushed by the headrush, when I wrote the bumrush
Saw you salute to the then Vice Pres
Who did what RayGun [Reagan] said
And then became prez himself, went for delf
Knee deep in his damned self
Stuck in a three headed bucket, a trilateral Bush-shit
Sorry ain't no better way of puttin it
No you cannot freestyle this
Cause you still ain't free
If I fight for y'all then they get me
How many o y'all is comin to get me?
None! Cause it's easier to forget me
Ain't that a Bush, son of a Bush is here all up in yo zone
You ain't never heard so much soul to the bone
I told y'all when the first Bush was tappin my telephone
Spy vs. Spy, can't truss em, as you salute to the illuminati
Y'know what? Take yo ass to your one millionth party!


He's the son of a Baaaaaad man
The son of a bad...
He's the son of a Baaaaaad man
Son of a bad..........

Now here's the pitch
Hiding inside certified genocide
Ain't that a Bush, repeat ain't that a Bush?
Out of nowhere headed to the hot house
Killed 135 at the last count
Texas Bounce! Texas Bounce! (c'mon)
Cats in a cage got a ghost of a chance
Of comin back from your whack-ass killin machine
Son of a Bush, ain't that a son of a Bush
Cats doin bids for the same Bush-shit that you did (the father)
Serial killer kid, uhh! Serial killer kid
Go on!

He's the son of a Baaaaaad man
The son of a bad...
He's the son of a Baaaaaad man
Son of a bad.........

the father, the son...
the father, the son...
(go on, better go on)
the father, the son, and the holy Bush-shit
The father...
The father...

Coke is the real thing
Used to make you swing
Used to be yo thing
Daddy had you under his wing
Uhh, son of a Bush
Bringin kilos to fill up silos
You probably sniffed piles
Got inmates in Texas scrubbin tiles
That shit is wild
That shit is wild CIA child
That shit is wild CIA child......

He's the son of a Baaaaaad man
The son of a bad...
He's the son of a Baaaaaad man
Son of a bad......

Son of a bad, man

------------

Yep. ;)

[[XR]Momo]

Hehe... has a nice ring to it :P.
Anyone else think bush is as ugly as bush-shit? not that it matters with his supreme decision making abilities... or... lack there of.

Anyway, thanks for sharing my web slinging friend :).

good things.

[spiderman3]

Glad you liked it Momo. :)

It's been a while, ay? Life is good, the fight goes on...

Be happy :)

[chris]

What happened Spidey, did they arrest you for storming the UK parliament the other day?? ;)

[Myshkin]

Wasn't he the one that scaled the outside of Buckingham Palace? Oh wait, that was Batman ;) Sorry Spidey, sometimes I get my superheroes mixed up. Of course I should never associate you with the playboy millionaire Bruce Wayne, that would be insulting... :Peace:

[FIATLOVE]

Yea but 2 weeks ago Spidey did his annual stunt, climbed the "eye of London" :)


:wave:

[spiderman3]

Hey Mads, Myshy :)

Those nutters have nothing to do with me. Still, it does show how easy it would be if assassination was my way. ;)

I'm causing havoc in my own way in the real world - nicely and kind of 'by the book'. ;) Glad to see and read you are well, all of you. :)

:Peace:

[FIATLOVE]

:hug: :) :ghug:


Mads

[spiderman3]

Sorry Chris I forgot to say hello. You are one of the good guys despite our disagreements here and there. I sometimes miss the old days and all those fights with the good the bad and the ugly. I don't swing by quite as often these days as the new regime is not to my liking particularly and it does seem quite dead as a geniune forum. But that is how world has gone so why should this place be any different?

:beer: :Peace:

[VQ]

everyones moving on and finding things to do, but it isn't a regime here thats for sure.

[spiderman3]

I say tomahto you say tomayto. ;)

[Sepecat]

Hey Rob,

I see you're still fighting for the little guys, eh? ;)

Yeah this place seems to be quite dead honestly, and there's only few regulars now :( Maybe its cause summer is over and some have headed back to school or others are busy with work or just plain busy…

I miss the good ol’ times here as well…

[spiderman3]

I haven't changed, George. A few battle scars and bruises and the fight for basic rights is ongoing. Too much has happened to go into detail but we are inching forward and getting results.


I'm glad to see the old RP newshound is still around. :) Cya around now and then matey.

:Peace:

[spiderman3]

There is a 10% chance our Prime Minister may die on the operating table. Let's keep our fingers crossed. ;)

:beer:

[chris]

As misguided as Blair may be, the conservative alternatives are almost always far worse.

Or you could vote for a far-right ultra-nationalist party.. I hear you have a really wild one in the UK at the moment with quite violent and extreme views.

They also purport to fight for the disadvantaged, as all of those sorts of parties do, they all sing the same tune, and bring about the same destructive results should they manage to get into any position of authority.

[Sepecat]

I do like Blair, but I guess your countrymen don't agree with me on that eh, Rob?

When the general election comes up people will put politics aside and vote the Liberals into power, where as I don’t think Tories will get much vote…

England is pretty liberal nation, and the people are showing that, so I doubt they want the Tories to take the helm…

[spiderman3]

Good grief I agree with the rational 'better Labour than Tory', Chris. Having said that I can't help but hate a traitor, try as I might to see any good in the man. Which ultra right wing fringe Party do you mean? UKIP, The Countyside Alliance, the Tory Party or the British Nationalist Party?

Blair should have been a Liberal Democrat really, George. He is no socialist in any respect, I suppose he is our Stalin in that he has betrayed socialism and got into bed with the fat cats. I don't know anyone who likes him, the best people come up with is he is a slippery sod impervious to ridicule and unable to apologise for being totally wrong on so many issues. But like Thatcher he has made enough of an impact on the enemy to let them know he is really one of them. The Labour Party has always at best been a soft alternative to real change, want a bit of a change? Feel like a touch of socialism without the revolution? Then Vote for Labour and we will soonj rid you of your illusions! ;)

If the Lib Dems win I will eat my bicycle bit by bit despite them being seen as 'left of labour'. People will vote Labour back because they are the 'best' of a very bad bunch.
----------

Rage Against The Machine
The Battle of Los Angeles (1999)
Testify

The movie ran through me
The Glamour subdue me
The tabloid untie me
Im empty please fill me
Mister anchor assure me
That Baghdad is burning
Your voice it is so soothing
That cunning mantra of killing
I need you my witness
To dress this up so bloodless
To numb me and purge me now
Of thoughts of blaming you
Yes the car is our wheelchair
My witness your coughing
Oily silence mocks the legless
Boys who travel now in coffins

On the corner (corner)
The jurys sleepless (sleepless)
We found your weakness (weakness)
And its right outside your door

Now testify
Now testify
Its right outside your door
Now testify
Yes testify
Its right outside your door

With precision you feed me
My witness Im hungry
Your temple it calms me
So I can carry on
My slaving, sweating,
The skin right off my bones
On a bed of fire Im choking
On the smoke that fills my home
The wrecking ball is rushing
Witness your blushing
The pipeline is gushing
While here we lie in tombs

While on the corner (corner)
The jurys sleepless (sleepless)
We found your weakness (weakness)
And its right outside your door

Now testify
Yeah testify
Its right outside your door
Now Testify
Now Testify
And its right outside your door

Mass graves for the pump and the price is set, and the price is set
Mass graves for the pump and the price is set, and the price is set
Mass graves for the pump and the price is set, and the price is set
Mass graves for the pump and the price is set, and the price is set

Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now controls the past
Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now?

Now Testify
Testify
Its right outside your door
Now Testify
Testify
Its right outside your door

[Sepecat]

When I wrote Liberals, I meant them as the Labour Party...

[spiderman3]

I see. Then we are in agreement. :beer:

[spiderman3]

The main attraction, distraction
got ya number than number than numb
Empty ya pockets son, they got you thinkin that
What ya need is what they sellin
Make you think that buyin is rebellin'
From the theaters to malls on every shore
The thin line between entertainment and war
The frontline is everywhere, there be no shelter here
Spielberg the nightmare works so push it far
Amistad was a whip, the truth was feathered and tarred
Memories erased and burned and scarred
Trade in ya history for a VCR

Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
Fourth Reich culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got ya searchin for
The thin line between entertainment and war

There be no shelter here
The frontline is everywhere

Hospitals not profit full
the market bull's got pockets full
To advertise some hip disguise
View tha world from American eyes
Tha poor adore keep fighting for more
Tha thin line between entertainment and war
They fix the need, develop the taste
Buy their products or get laid to waste
Coca-Cola is back in the veins of Saigon
And Rambo too, he got a dope pair of Nikes on
Godzilla pure mutha ****in filler
keep ya eyes off the real killer

Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
Fourth Reich culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got ya searchin for
Tha thin line between entertainment and war

American eyes, American eyes....
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothin behind

American eyes, American eyes....
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothin behind

Just stare ( x 4 )

Relive the nightmare

[Rage Against The Machine]

censorship not mine. **** means somnething bad to middle class mutha******* but only makes the message clearer to all. ;) Of course saving the sensibilities of 'children' is the last resort of a real muthaf****, that's muthaf**** that ends with an A.

[spiderman3]

I hope i'm not interfering in the US election. I would hate to do that. Not that it would make much difference which crack pot party was in charge of such a crazy nation. :( Either way, you are doomed by your own way of life, and us with you.

[Sepecat]

I've to agree with you there Rob, I'm sick and tired of the American Lifestyle... Sadly the youth of this country loves this pop-culture socity of ours, and it sickens me....

I bet you were pissed to know some 6.6 million in the UK tuned in to see Celebes being arseholes… :mad:

I'm blaming Liberal Hollywood for this mess... :rolleyes:

[spiderman3]

I don't know who to blame, mate. All of us I suspect... :(

I'm always ashamed of celeb worship but it all goes with the above. We deserve what we get.

[Myshkin]

"I don't want to comment on who won the debate yesterday... but the FCC is furious. They are going to fine the networks for showing the emperor without any clothes." - Bill Maher

[Myshkin]

P.S. My opinion of Michael Moore's work has not been a secret around here, but I'd like to take a moment to suggest that everyone that can see Fahrenheit 9/11, especially those of you that will be voting in our election should see it before voting. It will be released on video here this Tuesday.

And Sen. McCain lost what credibility he had with me by his comments despite the fact that he has not seen the film. I used to think that he was somewhat reasonable. Oh well.

Lyrics? This song comes to mind for some reason :rolleyes:

The lunatic is in the hall.
The lunatics are in my hall.
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more.

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade
You make the change
You rearrange me 'till I'm sane
You lock the door
And throw away the key
And there's someone in my head, but it's not me
And if the cloud bursts thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

-Pink Floyd

[spiderman3]

I haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11 yet. I look forward to it though.

Good lyrics BTW.

:beer:

[Myshkin]

Rob,

Truthfully there is not much that is surprising factually, but I thought the presentation was very good... and you know I have ranted against some of MM's other works, however this one I thought was well done. I have wondered if my positive reaction to the film was more because I am against Bush or if MM really did a good job. Anyway, there were a few moments when he suggested things that were really a stretch, but what he has said in the press is true IMHO: all of the facts that are presented in the movie are true. He does present his opinion about several things, and I think it is clear when he shows fact and when he presents opinion. The facts speak for themselves, I think. His opinions (again IMHO) in this film I thought were at least thought-provoking, and at best thoughtful insight. And of course he throws in heaps of his usual humor, take that as you may.

I would really suggest seeing this to anyone, even if you are a Moore-hater, or a staunch pro-Bush Republican. Ignore the commentary if you like. But don't give the lame excuse "I don't NEED to see it because I already know what it is going to be" like several Republican politicians that have been criticizing the movie. There was one guy on Bill Maher's show that was there along with Michael Moore that kept making assumptions of what was in the movie.... but he hadn't seen it.

So imagine that... I think he deserved his Palm d'Or or whatever that award was.

[VQ]

I've to agree with you there Rob, I'm sick and tired of the American Lifestyle... Sadly the youth of this country loves this pop-culture socity of ours, and it sickens me....

I bet you were pissed to know some 6.6 million in the UK tuned in to see Celebes being arseholes… :mad:

I'm blaming Liberal Hollywood for this mess... :rolleyes:


It sickens me too, in Australia, were becoming more and more faceless, our cuklture is so mixed, and yet the American culture is the one that stands out the most even though they are just as mixed, they end up making every other nation faceless, and all the old Aussie terms and sayings and ways of life are out the window, expeccially with this new free trade act where we will be swamped with more American products!!! I mean we are copying the yanks by buying more 4x4's and they changed the name because of them, it's annoying as hell, which is basically my reason for disliking America.

[spiderman3]

Mysh, thanks for the review. I will get to see it one of these days. At the moment I have my own battles to fight. I was sacked 2 months ago for Trade Union activities. At first this seemed a blow especially as the reason for my sacking is laughable. The real reason was that I was exposing bad practice by the firm including the suspicion we were being poisoned by Carbon Monoxide and was tackling bullying and racism by minor management figures. The list of bad practices is very long. Other sackings of colleagues have been overturned. I expect my sacking to be overturned soon. I never had a day off sick, was never late, never refused an assignment and always did my job to the best of my ability. I have woken senior management to these issues and the fact that our contracts are not worth the paper they are written on in regard to dismissals and grievance procedures. The TGWU (Transport and General workers Union) is 100% behind me. Still, nothing is certain in life and I won't count my chickens quite yet. ;)

We have laws both domestic and European to counter such bad management practices but getting employers to actually stick to the law is not always a simple matter.
===========

George and VQC'


The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere.

The bourgeoisie has, through its exploitation of the world market, given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of reactionaries, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilized nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilization. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it forces the barbarians' intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilization into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.

[K Marx]

Youth culture, pop culture, business culture is now universal or as near as damn it for first world Nation citizens. We are taught to worship the 'success' wherever it comes from. However, while culture is manipulated by the Corporate Pirates we tend to worship what they want us to. Even 'radical culture' is soon absorbed and made to bow to the cash cow on pain of extinction.

I am an Internationalist, there are millions of people in the USA, they can't all be bad.

[chris]

Australian culture is one thing, but I think some things are way overdone.. I'm sure some people from overseas believe that we all talk funny, and that kangaroos can be found hopping down the main street in the middle of a town, and that we only ever put shrimps on damned barbecues..

That stuff is all so yesterday...

As for the trade act, people voted for that, indirectly. Everyone knew what Howard was about. They all knew he is just about one of the most conservative leaders in existance. He said a GST was never on the agenda, and now what do we have, a GST! Then he blatantly lies again to the Australian public, using the "children overboard" scandal.

What more evidence does the general Australian public need in order to be convinced that the Howard government is up to no good???? How can so many people vote for a government that has blatantly told so many lies??

This government would also make students pay for tertiary education as well, and leave them swimming in an ocean of debt, encouraging a divide between rich and poor, where the amount of money you have becomes more important than your intelligence and determination to learn.

That in my opinion is un-Australian, and goes against the traditional "fair-go" for all.

To quote Gough Whitlam, It's time for change!

[spiderman3]

My knowledge of Oz politics is pretty poor. Mostly I get to hear about it from you, Chris. What does strike me is how Conservative rule sounds exactly like Labour rule. It seems they are brothers and sisters in everything from 'education' to 'war'. Howard and his clan seem to follow Blair and his clan in so many ways.

[spiderman3]

Anyway, back to the election in the US. Me I prefer Bush. Better the devil I know than the illusion of change. We all know nothing will change except at the margins. A few working class people will have a FEW concessions, the rich will pay a LITTLE MORE in tax maybe, the arms budget may be slightly reduced but the mindset of superiority will continue. As George (old RP newshound) would probably say, "the damn Liberals will walk like roosters and the damn Cons will sip their champagne more discreetly". Everyone will be angry whatever the outcome and the 'bitching' will go on until the people finally have their full of this BS masquerading as democracy. I judge society by how it treats its poorest, how it plans to elevate them from poverty and how each country treats its neighbours. We are all brothers and sisters under the sun, let's not forget that.

On that day in sep 2001 (in reply to a post from an Oz citizen talking about revenge and machine guns) I said that the US and the world had a choice, war or dialogue, change and hope or continuation of the status quo, (chickens coming home to roost was also mentioned) I stand by those words now. In racing sims we talk about racing on rails - In politics it's the same, the system we call modern democracy is on rails, there is no dialogue worthy of the name, there is no real choice except the choices they offer us, which is no choice. they will never apologise because by their own rules this means their destruction (in political terms - they can never be wrong) and their 'competitor' professional politicians will take control of the vehicle. But they made the rules. They know that as long as their 'competitors' stick to the rules then they will one day have their day again, and so it goes on. Technology progresses, politics doesn't.

I hope we don't have to remove some future President by armed force and all the destruction that will mean to millions. I hope that one day sheer force of numbers of American revolutionaries do that job for themselves, and a new revolution will rescue the ideals of the old one, and I hope similar revolutionary actions in my part of the globe does likewise to our so called masters who claim to represent us. I hope the same is done in the Middle East and that people everywhere come together to repair our damaged planet, our damaged past and our damaged present.

Destroying the 'enemy' cannot be done, because the enemy is born every day. They are the poor of our planet and they will not be held down for ever (or be manipulated by the likes of Osama). 10% of Americans own *80% of ALL wealth. This obscenity is enough of itself for us all to fight. Tens of millions of Americans live in poverty and tens of millions more struggle every day for the basics we take for granted. Europe too has its millions struggling in vain against economic nightmares and an uncertain future. Educating ourselves about these basics is a start. We have a planet to win. That is the greatest game of all. Until we have walked for a day in the shoes of the poorest and most despised on this planet we can't begin to understand the hatred that can manifest against our apparent uncaring, self satisfied and self obsessed 'first world' way of life. Crime, drugs, sex, crime, drugs, sex, crime drugs, sex, - they sell it, we buy it, they fine us, discredit us, use us and lock us up but there are far worse things going on in our names. We have 'free' running water from taps but many still prefer to buy bottles of water from the French Alps.

Take off the blinkers and really look. It hurts to see the world as it really is, but once you see you can never go back to wearing blinkers, or you could just take the blue pill and everything will return to normal and the pain will ease.



edited to correct a basic mistake in paragraph 4 * :rolleyes:

[Myshkin]

Always the idealist, eh? Sounds like a Nader voter :) Idealism over pragmatism. "Good grief I agree with the rational 'better Labour than Tory', Chris." does not extend to our shores? I'm sorry but there is just no way I could agree with your "Better the devil you know" position, even if I were to agree with your ideals. I think your reasoning is in the hopes that it will take us over the edge to your revolution... being an American, I acknowledge that we seem to be heading towards disaster, but I would certainly prefer something that would not lead to civil war, like a fading away.

To all of the Nader voters out there, please give your vote to the opposition that has a chance to win, if for no other reason than if you do not, it is quite possible that GWB will take his plans so far that the Green Party may not even survive another 4 years. Don't let GWB's fear-mongering take you in, fear is what they use to keep otherwise reasonable moderates and independents on their side of the line.

[Myshkin]

P.S.

Saturday, September 25th, 2004
Michael Moore On Tour; Slackers of the World, Unite!


9/25/04

Dear Friends,

Tomorrow I begin a little 20-state, 60-city tour to try and convince the fed-up, the burned-out, and the Nader-impaired to leave the house for just a half-hour on November 2nd and mark an "X" in a box (or punch a chad or touch a screen) so that America and the world can be saved. (I don't mean "saved" as in all workers will henceforth control the means of production. That's, um, going to take a few more years.)

What I'm asking is that our fellow Americans, as the collective landlord of a public housing project at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., take just a few minutes to evict the tenant who is currently wrecking the place (not to mention what he's doing to the rest of the neighborhood). After all, isn't this one of the coolest things about a democracy, getting to give some payback to those in power? "YOU'RE FIRED!" Oooh, that feels good -- especially if the recipient of the pink slip is someone who wants to send your kid off to war.

So, having nothing better to do for the next month (and eager to visit such swinging states as Iowa! Ohio! Arkansas!), I have decided to go to every battleground state in the country and do whatever it takes to get out the vote. I will do your laundry, I will clean your house, I will give you a year's supply of beer nuts if you will commit to me to go to the polls on Tuesday, November 2.

I'm calling it "The Slacker Uprising Tour", a coast-to-coast effort to bring the non-voting majority out of hibernation and kick some political butt. My goal is to get as many of the 100 million non-voters in America as I can to give voting a try -- just this once. I want at least 56% of all eligible voters to vote and thus set a modern-day turnout record.

I'm putting out the red alert call to slackers everywhere to help me lead this revolt. I want everyone in their teens and twenties who exist from one packet of Ramen noodles to the next bag of Tostitos to take your fully-justified cynicism and toss it like a Molotov right into the middle of this election. As "non-voters" you have been written off. But if only a few thousand of you vote, it could make all the difference. You literally hold all the power in your hands. That's even cooler than holding a TV remote.

I, the original slacker -- I, who have endured all sorts of attacks for my slacker demeanor -- yes I am coming to an arena or stadium just outside your dorm room (or that little space off the furnace room where your parents still let you stay, rent-free). Why arenas and stadiums? Because there are so many of us -- AND they serve beer and chips. From the Sun Dome to the Key Arena, from the Patriot Center to the Del Mar Race Track, I will be there and I will bring prizes and presents and clean underwear for all in need.

continued at: http://www.michaelmoore.com/index.php

[spiderman3]

I really don't want to get into a fight over this issue Mysh. I respect your thinking on this one even if I disagree that it will save America and by extension us. Your heart at least, like MM's is in the right place but think it through. Does GWB have a son? If so how long before the brat is helping his dear wife pick the furnishing for Pennsylvania Ave?


The difference between my comments to Chris and this is quite simple; Labour at least pretends to be socialist. People who vote labour traditionally, have declared themselves 'socialists'. There is of course a big difference between what people declare themselves to be with words and the reality of having to take action to back up those words. Still a declared socialist has a good chance of being an actual socialist given a backbone and a thoughtful and independent mind. I certainly don't want civil war in the US or anywhere. All I can say is in my long political experience I have seen precious little difference between tweedle dum and tweedle dee that passes for politics in the US over many elections (of course we are no better). The good thing about bourgeiose politics everywhere is that the game is the same and the changes are hard to spot after so much hype. Here comes the new boss, shine up the bombers and recruit the cannon fodder. The bombs drop whoever the resident of Pennsylvania Ave happens to be. You could put Jane Fonda in residency and she would be the bomb master general in no time, I can almost guarantee that.

About a decade and a half ago I was still of the opinion that one government of the bourgeoisie was better than another - usually the incumbant tories being the great evil - I was soon put right on that score. To play the game they make a pact before the election not to rock the boat that was launched by the previous occupants of power. Deals that are made in cigar filled rooms go ahead anyway. Your boss will still expect obedience, the landlord or bank will still want their cut, Hollywood will still make mostly crap films and the youth will be blinded by the special effects, they will still buy Nikes and Gap and get fat on greasy McCrap. The News anchor will tell us there has been a great change (and introduce us to new diets) but we will find it hard to pin that change down on anything concrete or meaningful. The war on the poor of the world will continue, the fight for resources and markets will continue and we will soon become bored of the whole thing - yet again. If I don't get a bullet in the head or have a nasty accident out there in the next five years I would like to come back to this place and this post and mull over this whole thing with you, mate.

OK, just to wipe the smug grin off of GWB's face would be nice. That's as far as I can go with it. For a while he will be sore about losing but his connections and the ill gotten weath of his rotten family will soon have him smiling again. Before you know it the powder up his nose will have his little brain planning a comeback.

MM and others have woken many people up to politics. That alone is something worth doing. Whether he will be pleased with the new boss in a years time? I think not. If not, where next?

Good luck to you anyway, Mike. Next time you are in the neighbourhood let me know. I will take you to a cheap cafe for a bite to eat, somewhere off the beaten track and we can share a spliff in the park and talk about the new boss. ;)

My house is your house if you don't mind kipping on the couch or if someone else has claimed it the floor and a sleeping bag ;)

:Peace: :beer:

edited for spelling here and there, I'm still spell checker free. But dem I spot I try to fix. ;)

[chris]

I am a traditional ALP (Labour party) voter, I have voted for them all the time, but I'm also a Green Party supporter too.

And to be honest, if our next elections didn't require me to vote ALP just so we have some hope of getting rid of John Howard and his conservatives, I'd be voting Green, without any hesitation.

ALP voters here tend to be the working class, and those who didn't come from a priviledged background. Centre-left voters I guess you'd call them. Not far-left wing voters, but not far from it.

And please, for heavens sakes, Australians here, whatever you do, even if you are a not a supporter of the conservative coalition party in government now, or the opposition ALP, please vote for the ALP and Mark Latham, just so we have some realistic chance of getting rid of Howard! PLEASE! I'm almost begging.

[spiderman3]

OK,OK! i'm WITH you both on this now. Out with Bush out with Howard! If the voters are with us all well and good. But keep a sharp eye on the newbies! Don't let them get away with anything less than they promise. :)

I'm gonna vote RESPECT given the chance. http://www.respectcoalition.org/

One day I will post without making an edit. I will try anyway.

[VQ]

everyone is chasing the dollar which is why society has gone the way it is which is why so many kids are smoking, so many are drinking underage etc, because everyone just wants money, everyone has lost their conscience to it.

[spiderman3]

I understand what you're saying VQC, I think we all do. Do you think it is worse now than say 20 years ago? I don't know if you were around then, so let's say when you were younger. Do you think you or I are imune to this thing called the need for money, the love of da green, the power and the glory of having 'buying power'? BTW, I don't know your first name, not that names matter really, mate. It's just hard to even think your user name let alone pronounce it. ;) But yeah, like I said we all know that feeling of disgust. money fairly earned by an inividual is nothing to be ashamed of. It is something we exchange for labour, mental or physical. Money through any other means is probably always 'undeserved' especially in vast amounts. We are not supposed to say "hold on, what the hell is going on? This is not only unfair, it's unjust." Even criminals, usually despised can gain 'kudos' from our media's if they are CLEVER enough to get away with it. A society that condones that kind of behaviour deserves to be despised by the hard working and law abidding majority. But I suppose we should always forgive the young especially if they learn in time. Smoking and drinking, unplanned sex and many dangers await those who learn too late. That is part of the game. lives thrown away, dreams and hopes sold down the river by kids who just want to fit in and get a bit of the action and instead find they are suddenly parents of kids themselves.

I guess what I am saying is money is not evil. It is a form of payment for labour to be used to buy services and products produced by other peoples' labour. A fair wage, fair trade and a fair go is what it's supposed to be about. Our society is amoral yet brow beats us all the time. Wierd really. A vicious circle of deception and lies.

[chris]

Money is money, the world would stop if it didn't exist.

Money isn't an evil thing, only some people are evil.

Sadly we don't live in an idealogical Star Trek kind of world where everyone does things for the good of human-kind. :(

[spiderman3]

No, we don't live in an ideal world. Anyway we should also think about the aliens, Chris. ;)

I'm glad you mentioned the idealistic thing. Myshy mentioned it earlier and I forgot to counter it. I am not an idealist. I am a realist, a dialectical materialist. Those who believe in the power of our present 'democracy', Kerry and other saviours of it are the actual idealists. If you doubt me look up 'the old man' on the subject. :D

:Peace:

edit: good grief, I need my job back. I have too much time on my hands. ^_^

edit2: I decided to reaquaint myself with the old man's views on the subject of idealism and found this quite spooky as to the previous posts and relevence...

The old man starts off with this:

This book compactly sets forth the fundamentals of Marx's economic teaching in Marx's own words. After all, no one has yet been able to expound the theory of labour value better than Marx himself. The abridgement of the first volume of Capital - the foundation of Marx's entire system of economics - was made by Mr. Otto Rühle with great care and with profound understanding of his task. First to be eliminated were obsolete examples and illustrations, then quotations from writings which today are only of historic interest, polemics with writers now forgotten, and finally numerous documents - Acts of Parliament, reports of factory inspectors, and the like - which, whatever their importance for understanding a given epoch, have no place in a concise exposition that pursues theoretical rather than historical objectives. At the same time, Mr. Rühle did everything to preserve continuity in the development of the scientific analysis as well as unity of exposition. Logical deductions and dialectic transitions of thought have not, we trust, been infringed at any point. It stands to reason that this extract calls for attentive and thoughtful perusal. To aid the reader, Mr. Otto Rühle has supplied the text with succinct marginal titles.

Certain of Marx's argumentations, especially in the first, the most difficult chapter, may seem to the uninitiated reader far too discursory, hair-splitting, or "metaphysical" . As a matter of fact, this impression arises in consequence of the want of habit to approach overly habitual phenomena scientifically. The commodity has become such an all-pervasive, customary and familiar part of our daily existence that we, lulled to sleep, do not even attempt to consider why men relinquish important objects, needed to sustain life, in exchange for tiny discs of gold or silver that are of no earthly use whatever. The matter is not limited to the commodity. One and all of the categories (the basic concepts) of market economy seem to be accepted without analysis, as self-evident, as if they were the natural basis of human relations. Yet, while the realities of the economic process are human labour, raw materials, tools, machines, division of labour, the necessity to distribute finished products among the participants of the labour process, and the like, such categories as "commodity," "money," "wages," "capital," "profit," "tax," and the like are only semi-mystical reflections in men's heads of the various aspects of a process of economy which they do not understand and which is not under their control. To decipher them, a thoroughgoing scientific analysis is indispensable.

In the United States, where a man who owns a million is referred to as being "worth" a million, market concepts have sunk in deeper than anywhere else. Until quite recently Americans gave very little thought to the nature of economic relations. In the land of the most powerful economic system economic theory continued to be exceedingly barren. Only the present deep-going crisis of American economy has bluntly confronted public opinion with the fundamental problems of capitalist society. In any event, whoever has not overcome the habit of uncritically accepting the ready-made ideological reflections of economic development, who-ever has not reasoned out, in the footsteps of Marx, the essential nature of the commodity as the basic cell of the capitalist organism, will prove to be forever incapable of scientifically comprehending the most important and the most acute manifestations of our epoch.

ooops. forgot the link. Don't go here unless you want to know. Believe me it means having to think. ;) http://www.marxist.com/Theory/MIOT.html

[spiderman3]

Anyway guys, I have to concentrate on imminent battles of the rough kind. Hopefully things will work themselves out and I can get back to work and earn my daily bread. People do rely on me and losing would really be a disaster. My opponents lack integrity and honour. If they had these qualities I would be certain of justice as would the workforce in general. The world is not like that so I have to be prepared. On top of all I have domestic problems to sort out.

Post away, I will be be back no matter what the outcome good or bad to report the news. I put my chances no better than 50/50. The company really fears me. They know that I am out to help the conditions of my colleagues. What they fail to understand is that I also like my job, my colleagues and the residents of (nameless North London Borough). If only they realised that the most important people in this organization are us the workers and that we are the key to success... instead they believe in cheap disposable labour without a voice. Managers believe they are more important than us. Laughable really but then, we are are used to it.

laters. I'll be back. ;) :Peace: :beer:

[Myshkin]

Hmmm I was trying to figure out what your other post had to do with idealism, at least in the sense that I mentioned it. I was simply pointing to your attitude that one or the other was equally bad because neither one would lead to your ideal. It does not matter to you that one would be a significant step back from the way we are heading. I don't really want to get further into this discussion, especially as you seem to have much more important issues to deal with... and I know this may start a row, but I don't think dialectical materialists are realists, period, and not often at all pragmatic.

You think of them as minor, but the number of issues dividing the two main candidates here, while not huge on the overall scale, are quite significant within our political system. Things such as tax cuts for the rich, corporate welfare, stem cell research, abortion, affirmative action, environmental issues, international relations, health insurance vis-à-vis the Gov't., stance on the military issues... okay so Kerry isn't in your camp, but you should at least see that he is closer than the alternative. Michael Moore does not tout Kerry as his ideal candidate, Nader would be more to his liking but I have seen MM on his hands and knees begging Nader to drop out so that we do not have a repeat of 2000.

:Peace:

Sorry to hear about your troubles, mate. I really would like to go to London someday, it just doesn't seem to be in the cards, but your suggestions are to my liking. If I did get through there, it would be likely be a layover on the way to Estonia, if I ever go back. BTW, when I was there this summer, I found that I have a third cousin that is my age, who happened to be in the Red Army when the Soviet Union collapsed. It was an interesting conversation :)

Also, I was wondering the other day if you have ever read Zodiac, by Neal Stephenson. The lines that brought you to mind:

"They employ me as a professional a-hole (self-edited), an innate talent I've enjoyed since second grade, when I learned how to give my teacher migraine headaches with a penlight. I could cite other examples, give you a tour down the gallery of the broken and infuriated authority figures who have tried to teach, steer, counsel, reform or suppress me over the years, but that would sound like boasting. I'm not that proud of being a congenital pain in the ass. But I will take money for it."

Heh anyway it's about a chemist that works for an environmental protest group.

Good luck with your troubles. "Illegitimi non carborundum" or whatever that saying is. 8)~ :beer:

[spiderman3]

I've always got time for a friend Michael. :)

Listen, sure some (political parties) are closer to 'my beliefs' and some are on the dark side of the moon. maybe it's because I am a bit older than you and have experienced the reality of such so called friends when in power. You have passed through my country many times but not long enough maybe to grasp the nettle of complete betrayal we felt very soon after the election in 97. I don't think you would have to search too long to find out how we revolutionary socialist's feel about Blair's 'new labour party'. If you did such a search you would find we had to apologies to all the people we urged to fight for 'new labour in 1997. It is something I can't forget. Of course we used the same rational - better Labour than Tory - even then. We convinced ourselves that despite the shortfall it would be worth it. We were proved wrong and the party apologised for that. Let's just say we don't get fooled again. ;) Sometimes to be rid of 'an enemy' we invite disaster by voting for the lesser evil. This lesser evil (Blair) has started 4 wars and killed countless thousands, offered a few bribes to forget that and has slept with the enemy. What can I say...? Even now I can easily find 'comrades' in the union who would probably decapitate me for my beliefs and lack of them in New Labour. I have flown too close to the sun already and know I am disposable to some in the movement. Consequently not many outside of this forum know my true politics. Horrid I know, but I wanna keep my head and also the resources presently at my/our disposal. If it were just me then it wouldn't matter but self sacrifice plays into the hands of 'the enemy' and lets down many who are looking for help. Well meaning liberals will not walk through the fire they only go as far as the contract/law/situation/mortgage allows. They will drop anything or anyone who threatens 'the party - the union' and not look back. They are what they are, they believe in the structure not the cause. I don't hate them, I just have to be aware of that fact.

Don't fret about my troubles. I relish the fight. Yes they winded me and for a while I thought I had blown it. But good things often come from bad as you probably know. If they manage to keep me out then they gambled well. But if they gambled badly, as I hope, then I will virtually be untouchable on my return. Worthwhile I think. I will know by midday on Thursday one way or the other. One thing worries me, I am totally unfit now for the job. hehe. I'm going to suffer one way or the other. ;)

That Neal Stephenson sounds an OK guy. ;) I bet that third cousin had a lot to say. Hopefully he didn't blame Lenin. :) Hasta Luego Amigo.

I was wondering, should I ever pass by Austin, Texas, would you put me up for a few nights? HAHAHAHAHAHA! No chance of that. Don't sweat it mate. :)

Bollocks! i had to edit again for a flipping i
:monkey:

[spiderman3]

On a point of interest maybe Mysh. I am sitting here listening to a Bob Crow speech from the RESPECT website. Bob is an old comrade of mine from Letonstone Depot on the Underground. I was a driver and he worked on the Permanent way (track maintanance) gang. We were in the same union branch. Oh, the good old days. Did you know we won a strike with Thatcher in power, unofficially (due to Tory anti union laws - laws that Labour promised to repeal but never did) ? Not many achieved that! Oh those youthful days of hope. hehe. Anyway, he is now 'leader' of the RMT union and a real thorn in the side of this Government. He is one of a small number of union leaders who refuse to bow to Labour or those old Tory laws otherwise known as 'The Awkward Squad'. You could put your life in his hands and be sure it would be safe. I once mentioned to my union coordinator that he was a mate after she had made derogatory remarks about him and RESPECT. Big mistake. I didn't hear from her for quite a few days... I had to pretend I was going to vote for Ken Livingston in some poxy vote to get her to forget my previous faux pas. So maybe you get my point about 'our movement' and the difference between us and them. Look on it as Stalinist's V Trotskyists only with English reserve. Stalinists used to enjoy putting our kind up against walls for target practice. Oh the good old days. :D Anyway, thought you might enjoy that one.

[Myshkin]

:eek: Errr Rob man I've never set foot in the UK. Only places I've actually visited in Europe are Madrid (6 days), Paris (2 days), Amsterdam (2 days), Helsinki (sum of about 2 days), Brussels (less than 24 hrs) and now I've traveled through almost all of Estonia, from the Russian border to the islands off the west coast, Tallinn to Latvia. Only country outside the US that I have been to "many" times is Mexico.

My cousin seemed mostly ambivalent about Russia. They live in a poorer part of Estonia (northeastern coast, maybe 50 km west of Narva and the Russian border), he has traveled around Europe a bit looking for work, he had even been working in the UK this year. He's fluent in Estonian and Russian, and speaks English pretty well. Anyway, I guess what he does it work for a period of time, sending the money back home, and then he comes back and stays home for a few months. The old (ugly) Soviet factories in the area were shut down, so the area is sparsely populated.

Turns out I have at least 10 relatives in this one town, although they are at closest my third cousins. The whole town was VERY friendly, I even met an Irish guy whole moved there with his Finnish wife, and they asked US what we were doing out in the middle of nowhere in Estonia heh. :) It was interesting to see a place where people still build their own houses, and where the houses as often as not have a well with a pump instead of running water. Even my wife, who could not easily have found a place more alien to her in the world, says she felt completely at ease there.

My cousin seemed laid back, the "qué será, será"-type. The only stories he told about his Red Army days were about he and his friends getting drunk while things fell apart. He is happy that Estonia is independent again, but he doesn't hold the past against anyone.

Rob if you ever actually did come to Austin, unlikely though it may be, mi casa es tu casa... seriously. I hope your laughing was at the unlikelihood of your coming to the US at all, not that I would not invite you into my home... I actually was about to respond to your invite in kind, but then I thought you would laugh at that... heh I hope for the same reason.

I get your point, and I hope you see mine.

:Peace:

[spiderman3]

Dude, you are a great guy. Estonia sounds layed back (like fifty years back at least hehe) and I have worked alonside many East Europeans in various jobs in the past couple of years including Russians and Ukranians. I must admit they are fantastic workers and a good laugh. They do face a lot of resentment here but they can laugh in the face of adversity and prejudice. :) I think the women are especially nice. ;) Gimme a bottle of Vodka and a nice russian girl and I'm content. One of these days I may get the girl rather than the vodka...

Hmmm, I dunno why I thought you had been here. It must be from the days I supected you were in the CIA. :p

I have just been emailing a mate in Barcelona. A workmate who has suffered at the hands of my firm and a real cool geezer. So now I have an invite to Barcelona and Texas. Goddammit! Must be my lucky day!! I won't fly anywhere on principle but when they build the Atlantic tunnel I will take the train. I look forward to it. I think I will like Texas, so see you there in about 2025 or so. Yeehaaa!

I am always seeing your point. ;)

[spiderman3]

Lest I forget. Something you raised earlier. Now, let's be civilised about this and just let it rest. ;)

Having established science as cognition of the objective recurrences of nature, man has tried stubbornly and persistently to exclude himself from science, reserving for himself special privileges in the shape of alleged intercourse with supersensory forces (religion), or with timeless moral precepts (idealism). Marx deprived man of these odious privileges definitely and forever, looking upon him as a natural link in the evolutionary process of material nature; upon human society as the organisation of production and distribution; upon capitalism as a stage in the development of human society.

[Myshkin]

If you believe that, it is precisely why we will never agree on this fundamental point. Men are not machines, they do not and will never follow scientific rules, and it is not only religion and ideology that cause man to "exclude himself from science". Humans are not the same on many levels that have nothing to do with religion or ideology. And seriously, if all we are is an "organization of production and distribution", we may as well ride this train to Armageddon, for it is our "humanity" that makes life worth living and our differences that make it interesting.

Are emotions no more than chemical imbalances that need to be scientifically controlled? Is culture just the remnants of religion and ideology that should be banished for the benefit of humankind? If you put worker X and worker Y separately in situation Z, will they react and produce the same result always? Even most of the time? At all?

I do not think that the logical, scientific solution to humanitarian problems is always the right one.

Sorry Rob, I couldn't let that one go by without commenting. :Peace: And I am sure you need to respond... so go ahead and give in to temptation :) Feels almost like old times ;)

P.S. Not that it would change your mind, but if you do the math, the gas mileage of a common airplane is actually better than most automobiles when thought of in terms of passenger miles per gallon (or passenger km / litre, whatever floats your boat) while cruising. I've seen figures as low as 15-20 pmpg (passenger miles per gallon) for a short 300 mile trip (consumes a lot on ascent/descent) to 100 pmpg for a 747 on a long haul. On a trip I take a lot from Dallas, TX to Los Angeles, CA, with the numbers that a flight attendant gave, I figured it to be about 60 pmpg on a 727 at 80% occupancy.

These figures do not apply to military or private aircraft, of course.

I know you're not exactly a car nut either, but I like to make sure that things are kept in perspective :)

[Myshkin]

Continuous Improvement

Today's world fleet is about 70% more efficient per passenger kilometre than in the 1960s. Between 1990 and 2000, fuel efficiency improved by 17%. In 1998, the world's airlines consumed about 160 billion litres of fuel. This is equivalent to 4.8 litres for every passenger transported over 100 kilometres (or 49 passenger miles per US gallon).

The latest aircraft flying today often match the fuel consumption of modern passenger cars and in some cases – depending on speed and distance – even of high-speed trains. As technological and operational advances continue, a fuel consumption as low as 3 litres per 100 passenger-kilometres (or about 80 passenger miles per US gallon) is no longer uncommon.

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/environment/fuel_efficiency.htm

[Sepecat]

It was interesting to see a place where people still build their own houses, and where the houses as often as not have a well with a pump instead of running water. Even my wife, who could not easily have found a place more alien to her in the world, says she felt completely at ease there.

:Peace:


Mysh, you need to get out more… Then you’ll see how people in many countries go about with their lives.…

But you'll adapt pretty easily IMO… I have… I got used to a country where they cut of the electricity from 8pm-10pm or 11pm… When its HOT, no HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

I doubt Estonia had rolling blackouts...

I also doubt the very minute you walked out of the Airport people with children came up to you begging for money so they can feed their kids… Or young kids less than 10years old in some cases, telling you they’ll carry your bag, for sum change… And I also doubt while you were going from the airport to your hotel or home, you didn’t see men, women and children walking in the streets, the roads, at times half naked or with very dirty clothes and coming up to your vehicle and asking for not money but food in many cases…

You haven’t seen anything Mysh…

[Myshkin]

Ahhh but India is not part of the European Union ;) I guess I should have been a little clearer about that. I do not think for a second that I was in the poorest part of the world... not even the poorest part of the EU for that matter. Anyway I was not looking down on it at all, I had no problem adjusting to going to the bathroom in a house that had no plumbing, that is not a big deal... it was more the contrast that a hundred miles can show. In the capital of Tallinn, you would think you were anywhere in the EU. Drive outside the cities and it's another thing.

I have to go... I had more to say on this subject but oh well.

[Myshkin]

Anyway, "I haven't seen anything"? I would grant that, not having been to India nor Bangladesh nor anywhere in Africa, there is plenty that I have not seen. However, I have seen the poverty of Mexico, Guatemala, and Ecuador. I am not a stranger to poor half-naked kids trying to sell me chiclets in the streets of Mexico City. The corrugated tin shanties around Guatemala City are familiar. The international airport in Guayaquil, Ecuador still stands as the worst airport I have been in... and ironically is the only airport where immigration has stamped my passport electronically. Not just scanned, the immigration stamp itself was electronic. That was odd.

What I saw in Estonia was like... say you went to south Jersey and found people there that build there own homes by hand, have no running water and electricity maybe in one room, or perhaps only by generator. That is why it was "interesting" and not "sad" or "depressing"... quite the opposite in fact. We were comfortable and they were fine with it. I wouldn't want to be there in January though.

So you win, George. You have been somewhere that I would probably have a hard time adapting... seriously, crushing population, poverty, heat and humidity would drive me nuts. I can take Mexico City for about a week at a time, but then I need to leave. Same with my wife's hometown of Torreon.

[spiderman3]

I have been catching a few hours shuteye and really was surprised to see this appear from god knows where?

Actually Mysh I rarely travel in anything that requires power. I travel in a car about once every three or four months. I travel by train at about the same rate, buses - forget it. Don't get so het up about it. I know you travel a lot by air and car etc like most of your fat and unfit countrymen and women. I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable about that. as for the rest of your rant? i will get back to you after Thursday if you don't mind. I don't mean to be impolite about this. Believe me, if I am still living and breathing I would like nothing better than to totally destroy your comments above. Please be patient. I really do have more pressing matters to attend to starting right now. Actually i want to sleep some more but such is life. laters mate.

:Peace:

[Myshkin]

:eek: Ummm where's the anger coming from Rob? Sheesh, we've been down that road, like I said I was commenting... why take it as an attack or something? "Totally destroy your comments above"... ??? My "rant"? "Uncomfortable"? I'm not uncomfortable at all, and I'm not afraid of your tactics.

Hmmm well I guess that couldn't last. I contradicted you, dared to question. There was absolutely no malice or rant in my post, mate. It was a direct rebuttal to your paragraph that immediately preceded it.

I will be gone later this week. Sad to see this discussion turn this way. Go ahead and post away if you want, but if you're going to be mad about it, I won't say anything else. I was looking for discussion, not someone attacking anything I say as a "rant". It was hardly a paragraph and it is precisely why we won't agree. That is my opinion. You have yours, it may be valid.

Hasta... la próxima. :Peace:

[spiderman3]

Actually I am not angry mate. I thought I was being polite if a little red eyed from too little sleep. Drying myself off now and typing this while dripping on my keyboard is my way of apologising if it came across as anger. I have an egg on theboil and toast on the go. I'm sure you would appreciate a proper demolition job rathe rthan a haphazard one mate. Please, once again, don't take offense or act all American on me. - demanding I mean ;)

If you are looking for something more substantial to destroy than that little paragraph above, go bhack to the post where I cut and paste those four or five paragraphs on economics, you will find a link. Read through as I intend to do once again. Try to stop your national irrationality from affectng your understanding of it. It is medium long at some 34 pages, I printed it out... Again, try not to speed read. Of course there will be errors. It is rather aged now and modern marxists have obviously ironed out most of the rough edges where they exist. There is rarely such a thing as perfection, honestly. Darwin made the odd mistake as did every other revolutionary thinker that ever existed. however KM did a pretty thourough job all the same. Of course his knowledge was built upon previous thinkers. We don't claim he is god just as near as damn it in certain fields. ;) Hasta la vista baby and my toast is...very toasted.

:Peace:

[spiderman3]

Scratch the above promises. Family problems mean what little time I have to devote here is low priority now. I have to make my way to Whitechapel pretty soon and there is no getting out of it. It is pretty serious but I won't go into details. To make it worse there is nothing much I can do to help. Standing or sitting around doing nothing for hours on end is the order of the day. I am struggling anyway. Too much on my mind and such. Seeya peeps. Be good and turn off the lights when you leave.

:help: :wave:

[Sepecat]

Anyway, "I haven't seen anything"? I would grant that, not having been to India nor Bangladesh nor anywhere in Africa, there is plenty that I have not seen. However, I have seen the poverty of Mexico, Guatemala, and Ecuador. I am not a stranger to poor half-naked kids trying to sell me chiclets in the streets of Mexico City. The corrugated tin shanties around Guatemala City are familiar. The international airport in Guayaquil, Ecuador still stands as the worst airport I have been in... and ironically is the only airport where immigration has stamped my passport electronically. Not just scanned, the immigration stamp itself was electronic. That was odd.

What I saw in Estonia was like... say you went to south Jersey and found people there that build there own homes by hand, have no running water and electricity maybe in one room, or perhaps only by generator. That is why it was "interesting" and not "sad" or "depressing"... quite the opposite in fact. We were comfortable and they were fine with it. I wouldn't want to be there in January though.

So you win, George. You have been somewhere that I would probably have a hard time adapting... seriously, crushing population, poverty, heat and humidity would drive me nuts. I can take Mexico City for about a week at a time, but then I need to leave. Same with my wife's hometown of Torreon.

Why go to South Jersey Mysh? When you can see that in PA, you forgot the Amish? It might be interesting for those that have not lived in a place where this type of living is very common…

But I want to make it clear; when I read your statement I thought you were the type of person that only likes the American life, where you have running water, etc... Maybe I’m mistaken about you, but is it that hard to live in a place like this for more than a week?

Try living there for Month or Two, and then you’ll appreciate their living conditions…

[Myshkin]

George, I've actually been to Amish country, and yes, I find it interesting. Just like I found rural Estonia interesting. Just like I would find south Jersey interesting in my fictitious scenario. And all three for slightly different reasons... I do not equate the Amish with what I saw. Like I said, I didn't find it sad, or depressing... I found interesting the contrast between Tallinn, which is considered one of the 10 most wired cities in the world (don't know where I read that, but I did and it seems to be true) and the countryside around it. Interesting. Meaning "of interest" not negative.

Kind of like India. I find it interesting that it is becoming a technological powerhouse, despite its poverty and problems. China is much the same, they have both been straddling the border between the two worlds. Sorry if you do not find that interesting, and are surprised that anyone else would.

I can't stand Mexico City for more than a week because of the traffic, the pollution, and the crowds. I can't stand Torreon for more than a week because it is blistering hot, dusty, polluted and crowded downtown. I could stand hiking in the mountains for weeks, though my longest trip to date has been only 12 days. I could stand living in rural Estonia all summer, though the lack of light and the cold would get me in the winter... but I think I exaggerate even so... I think anyone can adjust to anything. I probably could live in my grand-aunt's house in Iisaku, with only one room with electricity and a well for water during the winter. It might even be a fun idea to do it someday, but even my grand-aunt goes to Tartu for the winter.

Put it this way, if for some reason I had to go live in India, I would probably prefer rural, no running water or electricity to Mumbai. But this is only a guess based on my reaction to other overcrowded, dirty, hot and humid cities. I haven't actually been there so I can't say for certain. Maybe I would like it, who knows?

So like I said, you win... I'm sure you went there and lived like the common man and you loved every minute. Where you stayed had corrugated tin walls and where you defecated, you couldn't put paper because the drainage runs down the street (been there). Surely you preferred it to the shallow existence of America. You win, I am the shallow American that prefers relatively colder climates, lower population density, lower pollution, and the comforts of the 21st century to simplicity of the 19th. But don't mistake what one could get accustomed to with what one prefers.

Oops gotta go.

[spiderman3]

OK. Despite my ongoing problems I have decided that this is worth going on with. I agree with George, people like mysh though probably quite decent in their own way are patronizing and uncaring if they are faced with the realities of how THEIR way of life destroy the way of life of others. The sad thing is there is a whole book in people and attitudes like his. Another problem with people like Mysh is the same as it has always been. "Let them eat cake" she said. Some people on this planet (something we all share) believe they are more imortant than others. Believe they deserve more than others. Believe they are of a different, superior race or nationalility than others. They use lies and statistics to 'prove their point' and shake rattle and roll such 'statistics' as a club to hit their enemies. The reasoning? Shame or self interest. Well I believe that shame is the point here. Mysh is well known on RP for promoting air travel. I had no intention of brow beating or pummelling him for that. It is a common thing these days after all. But his so called proof of his innocence (above) is pure BS.

Even America was devastated this year by unbelievable weather conditions. We all got bored with listening to that didn't we? How many of us sat back and remembered debating in the past that such things would come to pass? How many of us (to our shame) smiled at the devastation brought upon them? I say a lot of us. Of course that is not fair on the victims and at the end of the day not very nice. But having read Mysh's comments on the poor I have to say I feel somewhat more of a compassionate human being than him. Not that there is a league table in compassion and there is certainly no cash advantage.

Apart from having doubts about his figures, I have serious doubts about his integrity here. As a self declared expert in statistics and maths he fails to mention the effect of mass and growth. A plane in 1959 is obviously far less fuel efficient than modern craft. Why? For the benefit of us or for the benefit of profit and regulation? Is it intrinsic that capitalists want us to fly for our benefit or for the benefit of investors and profit? Make up your own minds. How much devastation on the planet are people like mysh prepared to accept for their own convenience? How many passengers travel for urgent or necessary reasons and how many for convenience? Visiting 'Aunty' is very nice obviously, but the people of this planet prefer to breathe, prefer clement weather, prefer a future for their kind. If the price of visiting Aunty means our grandchildren wearing oxegen masks and being terrified of the weather system then that price is too high. Passenger miles today = what kind of life in the future? That equation is not possible to pin down. It is not simply a dollar equation. Hard as that may be for certain Yanks to accept. Feck you too. If that is your way of thinking, I can understand Osama.

I sometimes forget that some so called 'educated' Yanks (meaning apologists) are unaware that they are brought up to spout lies, damn lies and statistics to bamboozle and confuse. I don't blame them. They know not what they do.

Tomorrow I am going buy a copy of the Qoran. Tell your 'security' services to book a cell and get my orange jump suit ready.

[edited a lot] For presentation due to tables and for suddenly found Anti-American reasons. Don't Underestimate us as we over-estimated your national intelligence. Now it is personal.

Greenhouse Gas Pollution in the Stratosphere Due to Increasing Airplane Traffic, Effects On the Environment
Katta G. Murty


Department of Industrial and Operations Engineering
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-2117, USA
Phone: 734-763-3513; fax: 734-764-3451; e-mail: katta_murty@umich.edu
webpages: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/murty/
http://www.guthy.com/murty/index.html

10 November 2000, revised 26 November 2000.




Abstract:
The puzzle of climate is that atmospheric and oceanic temperatures have increased much more than can be explained by changes in the concentration of greenhouse gases. We suggest that part of the reason for this phenomenon may be the increasing volume of jet airline traffic round the clock and around the globe which is contributing to higher concentrations of greenhouse gases in the stratosphere than in the whole atmosphere. This indicates that the increasing volumes of airplane traffic worldwide have serious environmental consequences, perhaps more serious than the ozone hole phenomenon on which the attention of the scientific community is riveted.
Key words: Plane travel, greenhouse gases, stratosphere, atmosphere, atmospheric and oceanic temperatures, ozone hole phenomenon.



Modern jet planes fly in the bottom portion of the stratosphere, where the atmospheric pressure is 9 m.b., which is less than 1% of the atmospheric pressure of 1013 m.b. at sea level, to minimize fuel consumption. Since the air in this region is so rarefied, its local momentary composition changes easily even with the introduction of moderate quantities of external materials. A flying jet plane spews large quantities of greenhouse gases ( and ) all along its flight path in its exhausts. , the main constituent in the exhaust gases, is heavier than air, its density relative to that of air is 1.53, freezing point is . At the altitude where commercial jets fly, the outside air temperature varies between to , slightly warmer than the freezing point of . However, since the vapor pressure of at is 101 psig, the released in jet airplane exhausts will not condense, instead it will disperse at that altitude, and may gradually descend to lower altitudes very slowly, taking several years (see page 30 in [1]). Factors contributing to the slowness of descent of these gases to lower altitudes are: the fact that the region where they are released is well above the altitude from where precipitation of water and snow to ground level takes place, and there is no vegetation to absorb there, and the temperature inversion at the troposphere-stratosphere boundary. The large number of modern jet planes flying have resulted in significant increases in the value of . Since plane traffic continues round the clock, the value of never gets a chance through atmospheric mixing to settle down to the value of , resulting in a permanent increase in the value of well above the value of . A greenhouse gas envelope at the stratospheric level is much more effective than one at a much lower altitude, at blocking radiant energy from escaping the earth, it may explain the perplexing phenomenon of substantially higher rates of increase in the atmospheric and oceanic temperatures.
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~murty/planetravel2/planetravel2.html

[spiderman3]

I don't know how long I have debated in this forum (years). I don't know how many issues we have discussed. But I do know that not once have I been proved wrong, not once have I lied or promoted what you call 'my cause' - 'my revolutionary ideals' with falsehoods such as those that I have faced from what I now know as my enemy. If you can find such an instance then present it here. I am now at war. Yes, I declare war on the liar States of the USA and the UK. I am a traitor to my Masters and I declare that openly now. I promise to aid the enemies of my enemy if they request it. In the meantime I will continue my old fight for my old cause if for no other reason than the promises I made. It shouldn't be hard to track me down.

[spiderman3]

Having established science as cognition of the objective recurrences of nature, man has tried stubbornly and persistently to exclude himself from science, reserving for himself special privileges in the shape of alleged intercourse with supersensory forces (religion), or with timeless moral precepts (idealism). Marx deprived man of these odious privileges definitely and forever, looking upon him as a natural link in the evolutionary process of material nature; upon human society as the organisation of production and distribution; upon capitalism as a stage in the development of human society.

Over and out.

One final edit: ;) The above is not my text. I believe though cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that it belongs to the 'old man' of Mexico. A prison or grave is better than living a lie in a state that is a lie.

[spiderman3]

I have to sign in on more time to warn the reader of certain deceptions in law usually there to allow free passage of the rich and powerful (anyone heard of the poor and powerful?) get out of jail free cards. In law you can lie. All you to say to is "i believe - i believed" i.e Were the submarines in good order when you sold them to the Canadians? "I believed they were in perfect condition" etc - or "As far as I was aware they were in perfect condition." It is called being "economical with the truth." and we (British & even more so the Americans) are past masters of that kind of deception. Isn't language a wonderful thing!

Live and learn comrades. allah alaqubha

[Myshkin]

Heh I was thinking that Rob was going to be absent for a bit, and what a nice surprise to return to :) Well let's try to take this one step at a time. I will be working a full schedule of the next two days so you'll have to wait for a reply to your inevitable scathing reply to me. Please be patient :p

1. Your whole first paragraph is an attempt to change what I said to make it seem like something else. I was comparing airplane travel to automobile travel, period; the latter being something you oppose as well anyway. "Greenhouse Gas Pollution in the Stratosphere Due to Increasing Airplane Traffic, Effects On the Environment" is a theory, and I agree that it brings up issues that I did not even think of much less bring up. Not surprising, really, I am not a scientist. That is truly a subject that neither you nor I are experts in.

But.

Singling out CO2 as an example, consider that in the US in 2001, the country emitted roughly 5,614,9 teragrams (Tg) of CO2 by the use of fossil fuels. Of that, 1,747.0 Tg CO2 (31.11% of fossil fuel total) was from all transportation. Of that, 628.8 Tg CO2 (11.20%) was from automobiles (note this is slightly more than 1/3 of all transportation emissions). Now compare that to 131.6 Tg CO2 (2.34%) from commercial aircraft. Now compare that to 3,195.9 Tg CO2 (56.92%) produced by coal and natural gas emissions. Are you getting perspective yet? To sum it up if you don't like figures: airline travel does contribute to greenhouse gas emissions (obviously) but at this point in time its share is relatively minor. No more, no less.

Note that at no time have I said that these emissions have no effect on the environment, I just tried to "put things in perspective". I have serious doubts about Rob's integrity here :rolleyes:, it seems like he is more out to get me for personal reasons than trying to have a reasoned debate. But that is nothing new. He looked all over for figures to refute my figures... but he couldn't find them, the best he could do was come up with a theory that sounds like it knows what it is talking about, yet can't be proven. Admittedly, it looks like a good argument, so I will leave it at that.

Figures from: USA EPA figures (http://yosemite.epa.gov/OAR/globalwarming.nsf/UniqueKeyLookup/LHOD5MJTKQ/$File/2003-final-inventory_ch2-energy.pdf)

And backed up to some extent by a paper on France's emissions: Should we encourage growth in air traffic? (http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/airport.html)

2. What comments on the poor, exactly? I see I made comments about the contrast between a modern city and a relatively "old-fashioned" countryside in close proximity. I noted that I have encountered more severe poverty elsewhere, yet you don't know my reaction to that, that was not mentioned. Since you think so poorly of me anyway, I don't see the point in trying to battle your strongly held preconceptions. You would just call it lies anyway.

And as far as who thinks himself better than whom, I have never claimed to be better or smarter than anyone else. You have.

3. Hah "self-declared expert in statistics and math" where did you get that from? The only time this has ever come up before (awhile back), I wrote down figures that supported something I said that contradicted what you suggested. You didn't come back with figures refuting my figures, you came back with something about me like I only looked at figures or... I don't remember the line exactly.

For the record, I am far from an "expert" in math or statistics. My competence in those areas is probably average.

4. Shame or self-interest? Are those really my only two motivating factors in making an argument? Of course, only for people that don't agree with your narrow world-view, right? You are always motivated by a pure, selfless desire for justice, after all, you're Spiderman. Is that it?

You are using a very Bush-like tactics here, btw. Demonize your opponent, or like he does with Kerry by not answering directly but condescendingly suggesting character flaws and ignorance as a rebuttal. As you like to categorize what you view as my "tactics", these are yours.

5. "If that is your way of thinking, I can understand Osama." "Tomorrow I am going buy a copy of the Qoran. Tell your 'security' services to book a cell and get my orange jump suit ready." "Yes, I declare war on the liar States of the USA and the UK. I am a traitor to my Masters and I declare that openly now. I promise to aid the enemies of my enemy if they request it."

Hmmmm interesting. Obviously meant to provoke response, yet of no actual value. I was not aware that Osama was fighting for environmental issues, and that you have decided you give up your godless existence for a spiritual life. Good luck to you on that. But you know that just about the only thing that comes close to their hate of the US is dialectic materialism. ;) This would not be something new, of course... he has allied himself with the enemy of his enemies before. So have fun in Afghanistan or Pakistan or wherever he may be :wave: And watch your back if you win.

You declare that openly? Here on TotalNFS? Wow are we impressed. How about starting with your union coordinator? Or anywhere that actually matters? It seems to me your are falling into that "teenager making threats over the Internet" syndrome. I doubt there are more than 10 people that will read all of this. I wonder to myself why, if you are so serious, you spend time sermonizing here, of all places. And don't bother with the "defending others" bit, no one else has started political threads here lately but you.

One more note: If I were as uncompassionate, unthinking, angry and crude as you try to make me out to be, our discussions would never last as long as they do. Just like if you cared as little about this place as you claim so often, you would not return. So either you enjoy these little battles (as I do) or... what? Just out of curiosity.

:Peace:

[spiderman3]

I am reinstated. Next task - to get our boss sacked and get true worker participation and respect for the workers, without whom nothing would be done, made, taught or sold. I never seem to lose. I can't understand why because I fight fair and not the American way. Maybe it is down to "those who dare win". I have nothing else to say to you.

[FIATLOVE]

Hehe, heat is up here, that's good to see :D

Welcome to life George, I am so happy to see your reflections after your travels this summer, makes me glad :)

Myskin, the green house effect is maybe not seen as other than a theory at your place, but over here we can't cut of the connection.
My father is a well respected scientist, he did fight to convince all the scientic community here in northern Europe about the case in the early 1990's. He risked all his reputation for the case, even it wasn't on the agenda of his working objects (it was because he wanted to find out the relevances of what the environmental oppositors said about "his work").

Mysh, you will maybe say something about the "natural" chemical changes of our planet stratosphere.
And if you do, I agree with your comments, because the earth is in constant change.
BUT
By research during the last 40 years we can confirm that CO2 pollution (just an example) does accellerate the heating process of our planet earth.
The heating we see now is a result of the heavy pollution done by industry in the late 1960's/ early 70's (ca 30 years delay)

Just read the Kyoto resolution ;)
IMO the polution caused by humans are accellerating the climatic greenhouse effects to the worse.

The good thing is, the earth will still remain if the "weather" goes really bad and wipes out humans, the weather will just go into a new iceage, then return as a clean newborn baby earth.

It just takes 50.000 years or so :p

But Mysh, don't you agree that we humans now is too smart to not let the greed go before the intelligence?
There is enough food (if we only share it the right way).

But there is not room for all to live in the kind of luxury that we do, e.g just think if all the Indians or the Chinese (or both) should start driving cars...


Producing 0.5 litre of gasolin;
the energy needed to produce 0.5 litre of gasolin is the same energy needed for a a person to eat and drink if the person is going to ride a bicycle (in ca. 12 C degrees air temp average) for 540 kilometers.

Does anybody wants to talk about plains?
And now you may see why European car manufacturs are making small cars with less poltuin (and consume).
Making cars in aluminum is great, that will over some generations reduce the amount of energy used to produce a car.


In the 80's I was fighting my father and his work, I was a environmental fighter.
After what my dad told me 10-15 years ago, the weather we see now is going to worsen (statisticly) for even some years to come.
And so far, his predictions has been good, last 10 years.
Relax,
the CO2 pollution has decreased the last decades, it was on top in early 1970's, so within maybe 5-10 years ithe weather maybe getting better.
But that depends on how the glasier meltings will affect the stratosphere
^_^

[FIATLOVE]

:) :Peace: :love: :wave:

[FIATLOVE]

I just got a brilliant idea :D

Given statistics, the more wealthy and educated a community becomes, the less children will be produced (as long the country is leaded by capitalistic forces).
And, what is every capitalists dream?
Answer; EXPAND.

So there is alot of people to educate on this planet boys, if we raise them all to be capitalists, the number of human beings will decrease on this planet, then all may can live in wealth and happiness.
EXPAND OR DIE.

:look:


:Peace: :love:

[Sepecat]

Welcome to life George, I am so happy to see your reflections after your travels this summer, makes me glad

Hmm…. Mads don’t know where you get this from; I always have been a fighter for the little people….

I might be a conservative when it comes to Politics, but doesn’t mean I look down on those that are not fortune as us…

[spiderman3]

OK. My brother jumped from a window last week. He is still critically ill in hospital. He is still being kept unconcious for various reasons and has massive injuries and a long road to recovery ahead. He will survive probably, but has many operations to go through with all the dangers such operations involve. Fortunately I live in a social democracy with all the benefits of a National Health Service behind me and him and the nursing and doctor care is second to none. For that I am hugely thankfull.

I don't know why he jumped. I have my suspicions but until he comes around and I hear his reasoning, I can only speculate.

[Remko]

That's horrible, I'm sorry and shocked to hear that.

I hope he will recover, good luck.

[VQ]

That is horrible, I'm sounding exactly the same as remko, but I hope he revovers.

[spiderman3]

Thanks mates.

My brother is still unconcious but stable and getting the best treatment on the planet. He didn't want it and i suppose never expected to be one day brought back from the dead, but it seems he will one day soon be brought around so long as his brain is still there and functional. His spine is ok by some miracle. He has 2 broken arms, a broken femur, knee and ankle, two broken wrists, a broken elbow, a smashed pelvis, broken ribs, a ruptured bladder and other internal injuries, a smashed face including both cheeks his jaw and many lost teeth and a broken nose - also brain fluid leaking from his ruptured brain cavity exiting through his nose. He has a team of doctors and nurses that I have lost count of, covering all aspects of his care from othopedics to brain specialists and a nursing staff that is fantastic in their care of ICU patients and also the relatives who have to visit each day. They are truly angels (both male and female) and worth every penny we pay through taxes, in fact they are worth a hundred times what we pay. I cannot praise them enough. I haver tears in my eyes as I write this and think of them and their skill and humanity.

These things happen sometimes, usually when the family are least prepared to cope. In fact i am the family at the moment as we are spread over the UK mostly.

:beer:

[spiderman3]

First of all, I would like to apologise humbly to my old friend Mike/Myshkin, for being so unkind to an old friend.

I treated you as a piece of shit and I do feel bad about that.You are a diamond in human form and I will never repay the debt I owe you personally for all the good things (knowledge, self education and internal war) you brought to me by constantly being a pain in the arse, intellectually... In my defense I can only say that the last few months of my life have been the hardest I have ever faced. In fact the last two years have really put all my beliefs under immense strain for reasons that do not matter but are not unique. I'm not a super hero.

If a day goes by and I haven't gone out of my way to help at least one fellow planetary inhabitant, animal or human, I feel I have lost an opportunity to sleep soundly. Hopefully this obselete philosophy will one day return to more of us. I don't know anymore...

[chris]

OK. My brother jumped from a window last week. He is still critically ill in hospital. He is still being kept unconcious for various reasons and has massive injuries and a long road to recovery ahead. He will survive probably, but has many operations to go through with all the dangers such operations involve. Fortunately I live in a social democracy with all the benefits of a National Health Service behind me and him and the nursing and doctor care is second to none. For that I am hugely thankfull.

I don't know why he jumped. I have my suspicions but until he comes around and I hear his reasoning, I can only speculate.

That is terrible news. I hope your brother will recover. Good luck to both of you.

[spiderman3]

:) Thanks Chris. Things happen, life goes on. We have no choice but be look to the future but live today. The past sucks.

edit: But history rocks!

[FIATLOVE]

Some days ago I got a PM from a freind I do respect alot.
I did not answer him personally until now; Myshkin, I am glad I did not reply to your PM, cus I would said that Rob "is out of tune" or something like that, I was very surprised to see him talk to you like that.
Well now you do know why he did that, and so do I..


Rob maty, I have nothing to say, or I can't find words, this story just makes me hurt.
I am happy to see that you brother is stabile and is taken care of by good people.
I wish him best recovery, and I do know he is lucky to have you as brother when he wakes up.
Right now I just feel very sad by this post, please let me give you a :hug: Rob, cus I care for you.

And no matter what your brothers story is, IMO he is not allowed to do this to his family.
I will forgive him and I bless godness for he is still alive, still I'm harmed that he did this to you.

And to himself (!) (I am not angry at him in any way), I just don't understand him, just like I do not understand my own insanity.


Mads

[spiderman3]

:hug: Thanks mads. :coffee: :spidey:

[Sepecat]

:( Wow Rob, Sorry about the late response Mate… And also very sorry to hear about your brother… I wish him and you the very best, and a speedy recovery… :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


Btw how’s he doing now?

Better I hope

[spiderman3]

Hi George, well he has been off artificially induced sleep for over a week but still no sign of coming around. He may come out of the coma eventually, we live and hope. He is out of ICU and on a more general ward now but still on a ventilator as he won't breathe on his own.

[spiderman3]

I want that **** Bush to win and America to lose.

[spiderman3]

Dialectics

Dialectics is the method of reasoning which aims to understand things concretely in all their movement, change and interconnection, with their opposite and contradictory sides in unity.

Dialectics is opposed to the formal, metaphysical mode of thought of ordinary understanding which begins with a fixed definition of a thing according to its various attributes. For example formal thought would explain: ‘a fish is something with no legs which lives in the water’.

Darwin however, considered fish dialectically: some of the animals living in the water were not fish, and some of the fish had legs, but it was the genesis of all the animals as part of a whole interconnected process which explained the nature of a fish: they came from something and are evolving into something else.

Darwin went behind the appearance of fish to get to their essence. For ordinary understanding there is no difference between the appearance of a thing and its essence, but for dialectics the form and content of something can be quite contradictory — parliamentary democracy being the prime example: democracy in form, but dictatorship in content!

And for dialectics, things can be contradictory not just in appearance, but in essence. For formal thinking, light must be either a wave or a particle; but the truth turned out to be dialectical — light is both wave and particle. (See the principle of excluded middle)

We are aware of countless ways of understanding the world; each of which makes the claim to be the absolute truth, which leads us to think that, after all, “It’s all relative!”. For dialectics the truth is the whole picture, of which each view make up more or less one-sided, partial aspects.

At times, people complain in frustration that they lack the Means to achieve their Ends, or alternatively, that they can justify their corrupt methods of work by the lofty aims they pursue. For dialectics, Means and Ends are a unity of opposites and in the final analysis, there can be no contradiction between means and ends — when the objective is rightly understood, "the material conditions [means] for its solution are already present or at least in the course of formation" (Marx, Preface of Contribution to a Political Economy)

One example of dialectics we can see in one of Lenin's call: “All Power to the Soviets” spoken when the Soviets were against the Bolsheviks. Lenin understood, however, that the impasse could only be resolved by workers’ power and since the Soviets were organs of workers’ power, a revolutionary initiative by the Bolsheviks would inevitably bring the Soviets to their side: the form of the Soviets during the time (lead by Mensheviks and SRs) were at odds with the content of the Soviets as Workers’, Peasants’ and Soldiers’ Councils.

Formal thinking often has trouble understanding the causes of events — something has to be a cause and something else the effect — and people are surprised when they irrigate land and 20 years later — due to salination of the land, silting of the waterways, etc — they have a desert! Dialectics on the other hand understands that cause and effect are just one and another side of a whole network of relations such as we have in an ecosystem, and one thing cannot be changed without changing the whole system.

These are different aspect of Dialectics, and there are many others, because dialectics is the method of thinking in which concepts are flexible and mobile, constrained only by the imperative of comprehending the movement of the object itself, however contradictory, however transient.

History: Dialectics has its origins in ancient society, both among the Chinese and the Greeks, where thinkers sought to understand Nature as a whole, and saw that everything is fluid, constantly changing, coming into being and passing away. It was only when the piecemeal method of observing Nature in bits and pieces, practiced in Western thinking in the 17th and 18th century, had accumulated enough positive knowledge for the interconnections, the transitions, the genesis of things to become comprehensible, that conditions became ripe for modern dialectics to make its appearance. It was Hegel who was able to sum up this picture of universal interconnection and mutability of things in a system of Logic which is the foundation of what we today call Dialectics.

As Engels put it:

“the whole world, natural, historical, intellectual, is represented as a process — i.e., as in constant motion, change, transformation, development; and the attempt is made to trace out the internal connection that makes a continuous whole of all this movement and development.” [Socialism: Utopian & Scientific]

It was in the decade after Hegel’s death — the 1840s — when Hegel’s popularity was at its peak in Germany, that Marx and Engels met and worked out the foundations of their critique of bourgeois society.

Hegel’s radical young followers had in their hands a powerful critical tool with which they ruthlessly criticised Christianity, the dominant doctrine of the day. However, one of these Young Hegelians, Ludwig Feuerbach, pointed out that Holy Family was after all only a Heavenly image of the Earthly family, and said that by criticising theology with philosophy, the Young Hegelians were only doing the same as the Christians — Hegel’s Absolute Idea was just another name for God! For Feuerbach, ideas were a reflection of the material world and he held it to be ridiculous that an Idea could determine the world. Feuerbach had declared himself a materialist.

Marx and Engels began as supporters of Feuerbach. However, very soon they took up an opposition to Feuerbach to restore the Hegelian dialectic which had been abandoned by Feuerbach, and to free it from the rigidity of the idealistic Hegelian system and place the method on a materialist basis:

“Hegel was an idealist. To him, the thoughts within his brain were not the more or less abstract pictures of actual things and processes, but, conversely, things and their evolution were only the realized pictures of the ‘Idea’, existing somewhere from eternity before the world was. This way of thinking turned everything upside down, and completely reversed the actual connection of things in the world. ” [Fredrick Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific]

Thus, for Marx and Engels, thoughts were not passive and independent reflections of the material world, but products of human labour, and the contradictory nature of our thoughts had their origin in the contradictions within human society. This meant that Dialectics was not something imposed on to the world from outside which could be discovered by the activity of pure Reason, but was a product of human labour changing the world; its form was changed and developed by people, and could only be understood by the practical struggle to overcome these contradictions — not just in thought, but in practice.


The point is not to interpret the world [blah blah] the point is to change it. We are products of our environment (system - place of birth etc) not born of angels or some other metaphysical bullshit.

[spiderman3]

I bet most of you USers voted for one of the two big guys (because it's clever to vote for the twin evils on this planet). Good grief - democracy is dead and buried in USerland. But like, we didn't know that already..?

[chris]

I'll quote one of the politicians I have the utmost respect for, Gough Whitlam:

"If you are going to get involved in politics, join one of the major parties, where you have a chance of making a real difference"

Now what he is saying there is pretty true, voting or joining a smaller party, while good for idealogy, it means yout vote or say is sometimes wasted, and doesn't really make a difference.

Whitlam was a former leader of the Australian Labor Party, and one of the few politicians I respect. If more were like him, Australia, and possibly the world would be a better place.

I'm following the US elections closely, and hoping Kerry will win. From what I've seen of Kerry, I believe he will be a cautious, careful leader. And that is a good thing in my opinion. Even for republican supporters who might be saddened if Bush loses, I think you don't need to be overly concerned if Kerry should win. It won't be the end of the world for you, and your life won't radically change.

That's my personal opinion on the matter.

[chris]

Latest predictions are that Bush will win.

[spiderman3]

quote Chris#
"If you are going to get involved in politics, join one of the major parties, where you have a chance of making a real difference"


#====

What "REAL DIFFERENCE" do you mean? Really, I would be interested to know what he actually means by such idiotic words. It sounds like it means something but in reality it means following the incumbent party leader with more of the same. And we all know that anyone with real change in mind gets slated by our masters' real swayer of 'opinion', the media. Who owns the media? Who tells you who is ready for power, credible or worthy? Have no respect 'utmost or otherwise' for professional politicians.

[spiderman3]

Just an update on my brother. He is still in recovery and it will be a long time yet before he gets out of that damn hospital bed. But recently he asked for a cigerette so I think that says a lot. He still has a lot of surgery especially orthopedics ahead of him and he has also developed a minor infection due to hospital bugs (MRSA) but he should fight this off. Anyone who survives what he survived should hopefully fight the pesky MRSA bugs. Best wishes to all at RP. Take it easy and be cool. Rob.

[Remko]

Thanks for the update. -^ It's gonna be an incredible task to recover from something so traumatic, but it looks like he's doing it.
Hope you both manage to take it easy, and keep the faith.

[chris]

quote Chris#
"If you are going to get involved in politics, join one of the major parties, where you have a chance of making a real difference"


#====

What "REAL DIFFERENCE" do you mean? Really, I would be interested to know what he actually means by such idiotic words. It sounds like it means something but in reality it means following the incumbent party leader with more of the same. And we all know that anyone with real change in mind gets slated by our masters' real swayer of 'opinion', the media. Who owns the media? Who tells you who is ready for power, credible or worthy? Have no respect 'utmost or otherwise' for professional politicians.

He means going where you can actually bring about some change, where you have a chance to do it, rather than just sitting on the sidelines where you can't do a thing, and never will have the chance.

I don't have respect for politicians of today, but Mr Whitlam, as you may not know was different to the professional career politicians of today.

Good to see your brother is getting better as well.

[spiderman3]

What change? You mean tinkering and keeping the status quo intact I believe. hehe. The world is in constant change, everything changes everyday naturally. Sometimes things change, really change in a big leap, this is another law and it is called revolutionary change.

Thanks chaps. Every day brings improvement.

[spiderman3]

Chris, if the Australian economy became a basket case such as hit many economies in the 90's such as Argentina and your job disappeared and your savings, if you have any, vanished and your property, if you own any, became worthless, what would you do? I guess like many of us you would do anything to survive. But apart from pure survival as the cushioned economy you enjoy today (on the backs of the poor of the world) disappears and the kind of politics you understand today disintergrates, you may wish you had a deeper understanding of what may be and how to achieve a fairer world. He who is first will be last and he who is last will be first. Why should this reversal of roles be fair? Because he who was first did nothing for those that were last when they had the chance.

:Peace:

edit for the usual gramatical and spelling mistakes - apologies for all those I missed.

edit2

In case you don't understand my point as far as professional politicians are concerned - they will not save you when the shit hits the fan as described above, far from it, they will consolidate and migrate taking suit cases full of whatever has value to any economy capable of sustaining them and keeping them from prison or worse by their ex compatriots. Professional politicians only manage the system, they tinker here and there but they are not the architects, they take the applaus when things are going well arccording to their media and financial puppeteers, but never accept responsibilty for the crap when it hits the fan. Don't you get it yet?

:monkey:

[Sepecat]

Hello Rob, good to hear your bro is coming around… Thanks for the update Mate… So How are You? Been some time, since you dropped by…

[Sepecat]

I bet most of you USers voted for one of the two big guys (because it's clever to vote for the twin evils on this planet). Good grief - democracy is dead and buried in USerland. But like, we didn't know that already..?

Well I’m an exception unlike Mysh, I voted who I thought was doing a good Job… Not who is lesser evil of the two… But I think you already knew that… ;)

[spiderman3]

Hi George, thanks, yes thankfully my brother (Ewan) is still around to tell the tale. I have been rather busy with other matters as you might have guessed. So much so that I completely missed the US election. Who won?

I am a little worried about the dollar. I hope you lot don't have to start taking wheel barrows full of notes out to buy a loaf of bread or anything, not for a few months anyway! ;) Nice to see you are still around too my old mate. :)