USAF drops bomb on Eastern England by accident

[[SK]Tammy]

A US airforce practice bomb has been dropped on the Yorkshire countryside.

A spokesman for the United States airforce (USAF) said the training bomb landed in an area near Holme on Spalding Moor - six miles south west of Market Weighton in East Yorkshire.

The BDU-33 bomb, which weighs 25-pound and produces smoke on impact, caused an 18-inch crater in an asphalt track which is part of an old airfield now owned by Allied Grains.

The accident happened at about 1715 GMT on 8 January.

The device was dropped from an RAF Lakenheath F-15 fighter jet.

It was an inert practice bomb and no-one was hurt in the incident.

First Lieutenant Augustine Ekpoudom said the bomb had caused a crater 18 inches in diameter.

He said the incident was "an extremely rare occurence".

"Public safety is always our primary concern," he said.

"There were no injuries, limited property damage, and the inert munition was recovered.

"The F-15E Strike Eagle was conducting a routine training mission at the time of the incident.

"Trained and experienced base personnel including Ministry of Defence, and local constabulary authorities responded to the scene and an investigation team is determining the cause of the incident."

Alan Marsland, who farms land near to the site the bomb landed, said: "It went through the asphalt on this old airfield which is now owned by Allied Grain. Luckily no-one was around."


I did not think mistakes like this could happen. Are there not procedures before bombs can be released?

Tammy

[Myshkin]

You think it was a mistake?

:?

:) I think the war in Iraq has proved that even the smartest bombs end up going where they shouldn't sometimes.

Edit: I just read that again... I don't get it. A USAF bomb was dropped on Yorkshire... by a RAF plane? Huh? Okay they both may have been American-made perhaps but...

[[SK]Tammy]

Originally posted by Myshkin
Edit: I just read that again... I don't get it. A USAF bomb was dropped on Yorkshire... by a RAF plane? Huh? Okay they both may have been American-made perhaps but...

A bit confusing, RAF Lakenheath is a US air base in England. It was a US jet that dropped the bomb! :D

Tammy

[Sepecat]

I was going to post this before, but didn’t have the time to do, and now I don’t either since I have to go to the Post Office…. Before I go a quick correction to the article…

The device was dropped from an RAF Lakenheath F-15 fighter jet

The Bomb was dropped from an USAF F-15E Strike Eagle… RAF Lakenheath is a base in Suffolk, and that is where the training run began….

This should clear it up MYSH?

George`

{Edit}It Seem we both posted about the same time.... :p

[WCOutlaw]

It'll be a USAF plane (UK doesn't have any F-15's I don't think), a USAF bomb - RAF Lakenheath is home to some of the USAF (as are other air force bases around) - so that adds up...

As for dropping a bomb by "accident" - well, I'd just have to laugh... Mysh is right, despite all the 'smart' bombs and incredible technology, it's clear that things still go wrong, often horribly - luckily in this scenario it wasn't...

Wow... :eyecrazy:

Given that these are the same calibre USAF pilots that are supposedly combatting terrorism, etc. I'm just a little aggitated that this kind of thing can happen... Kinda scary.

[[SK]Tammy]

Originally posted by WCOutlaw
It'll be a USAF plane (UK doesn't have any F-15's I don't think)

The UK have Tornado's, Jaguar's and Harriers - all of which are being taken out of service soon in favour of the new Euro Fighter.

Tammy

[Wazza]

You mean the bomb missed innocent civilians in England?

Seems every missed bomb hits bystanders, or at least that's all we're lead to beleive.

With such sofisticated laser-guided bombs etc, I still wonder how they end up a block off target, when they're claim is within 1 yard. Quite a large variance?
Maybe it was the intentional target in the first place, such as some Iraq bombs.. Coverup. Perhaps.
:")

[Sepecat]

I thought the UK was going for the American F-22 “Joint Strike Fighter” I seem to remember from a documentary on the JSF F-22 that some 22 countries have placed orders for it… Including a number of European Countries…

I thought the UK has placed an order for it, but I could be wrong….

George`

[[SK]Tammy]

You could be right there George, but I can find no news reports on that, only this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/41509.stm

Edit:

Looks like you are spot on George! :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1121451.stm

Tammy

[Myshkin]

Y'all sure that George Bush isn't over there for a visit? He's been known to commandeer a fighter jet sometimes, also would explain things.

I get it now. A USAF F-15 from RAF Lakenheath. One must know that RAF Lakenheath is a USAF base in order to get it how it was written, or at least know the obvious fact that the limeys don't like our steel birds. Of which, until a few minutes ago, I seemed to have been ignorant.

[Sepecat]

Bush, when in the Texas Air National Guard, was indeed a Fighter Pilot… I think I remember when Bush made that Carrier landing, there were reports Bush took the “Stick”

:p

GEorge`

[Myshkin]

(Psssst... George.... that is what made my post funny ;) )

[DCsplash]

Originally posted by Wazza
You mean the bomb missed innocent civilians in England?
:")


There's no such thing as an innocent Yorkshireman..;)

[Wazza]

hehe, I didn't know they were a bad tribe!

My family always tell me to stay away from any Northerners, and people from Liverpool, etc. I'll stick to the nice people in Kent. :D

[Spiderman2]

I lived in Yorkshire for a time. Couldn't understand a word they said, so I left. Still, I am not in favour of bombing them. They are generally harmless.

[Sepecat]

Originally posted by Spiderman2
I lived in Yorkshire for a time. Couldn't understand a word they said, so I left. Still, I am not in favour of bombing them. They are generally harmless.

I bet you wouldn’t mind a bomb going off target and striking Buckingham Palace Or 10 Downing Street ?

Heh :D

George`

[Cheyenne]

Originally posted by Spiderman2
I lived in Yorkshire for a time. Couldn't understand a word they said, so I left. Still, I am not in favour of bombing them. They are generally harmless. Well, unless you get any water on them... or feed them after midnight :D

http://www.cinefantastico.com/gremlin1.jpg

[[SK]Tammy]

Originally posted by Wazza
My family always tell me to stay away from any Northerners, and people from Liverpool, etc. I'll stick to the nice people in Kent. :D

^_^

Absolutely spot on Warren! :D

Northerners are odd people. They despise us southerners because we talk properly and have better weather!

People from Liverpool hate each other more than any other part of the UK, so its always a blast visiting people up there!

:help:

Tammy

[WCOutlaw]

I see Tammy is wearing her Southerner hat today, despite other days where she claims to be Scottish :p - I guess it changes as it suits :p

/me is a Northerner :)

Oh, and don't get me started on that "talk properly" crap with Eastbenders and the like :p ;)

Hehe

Liverpool isn't that bad, Moss Side in Manchester is a bit more worrying to me...

[[SK]Tammy]

Originally posted by WCOutlaw
I see Tammy is wearing her Southerner hat today, despite other days where she claims to be Scottish :p - I guess it changes as it suits :p
Hehe!

I was waiting for that! :D

Like Flitchy, I am from Southern Scotland, so that does not count. ^_^

It just refers to you Northern Englanders!

:help:

Tammy

[WCOutlaw]

Hahahah :D

I was expecting something like "Bloody ex-pat Brit leaving for foreign lands" ;)

I've done quite a bit of work around Flitchy-ville (not sure exactly where he is, but around there) - nice area... too bad I didn't get North enough to visit Nessie :)

[Spiderman2]

George, you naughty boy! I hate bombs with the exception of sex bombs.

Yorkshire women are nice, I found them very friendly. You don't need to talk sometimes to get on. )=) If anyone wants to know what Yorkshire men are like as a rule then rent a copy of 'An American werewolf in London'. Remember that pub? It's exactly like that. &(

[Venom800tt]

Sometimes if a weapons isn't properly secured to the aircraft it can fall of without the pilot knowing it. Especially if it is something as small as a practice bomb.
And it isnt the F-22 JSF :p
It's called the F/A-35 JSF. It does look similar to the F/A-22 Raptor though.

[heinrick]

Originally posted by Spiderman2
I lived in Yorkshire for a time. Couldn't understand a word they said, so I left. Still, I am not in favour of bombing them. They are generally harmless.

Sure, unless you're a sheep....

Baaaa, are eeewwwwwwwwwweeee my daaaaddddddddddddddyyy? ^_^

Yes, I say that the US should go after Yorkshire after Iraq, for WMDD (Weapons of Mass Dietary Distruction) eg, Bacon Butties and for their assault and continued torture of the English language.

Heinrick

[Wazza]

Yes indeed the JSF was again a battle for Lockheed and Boeing in the X-35 battle. Lockheed won.....

F22 raptor is something completely different.

And F15... well they're getting on a bit now... They'll be all replaced within 5-10 years.

[Spiderman2]

Any chance we can cancell all orders for death planes and invest our hard earned money on things that make peoples lives better like hospitals, schools and International goodwill?

[Myshkin]

Not likely :'(

[Spiderman2]

Oh well... :'(

[DCsplash]

Originally posted by Spiderman2
Any chance we can cancell all orders for death planes and invest our hard earned money on things that make peoples lives better like hospitals, schools and International goodwill?

Oh honestly Spidy,, where on earth do you get such wacky ideas from? ;)

[Spiderman2]

Mum used to say she must have dropped me on my head as a baby.


Soldier's Dream

I dreamed kind Jesus fouled the big-gun gears;
And caused a permanent stoppage in all bolts;
And buckled with a smile Mausers and Colts;
And rusted every bayonet with His tears.


And there were no more bombs, of ours or theirs,
Not even an old flint-lock, not even a pikel.
But God was vexed, and gave all power to Michael;
And when I woke he'd seen to our repairs.


Wilfred Owen
------------

[Wazza]

What is US's defence budget?
I bet it's huge, especially when they're constantly battling crazy terrorists, taking over little countries and whatever else.

If every person just had a good side, we sure wouldn't need all these fighter aircraft, tanks, military... In fact we wouldn't need police.

I guess a wish for World Peace is impossible...
Constant wars...people trying to proof they're bigger...
Or their God is greater etc.

[Spiderman2]

I believe the US 'defense' budget is $380 billion a year. Strangely enought the Iraqi National debt is $383 billion dollars.


Mark Thomas, a stand up comic did a programme last year about the debt; He concluded:

If you do the maths it works out that each Iraqi owes $16000.00 each. Given that they earn $150.00 per year if they spend no money on food or water, electricity or fripperies such as medicine or housing it would take them 112 years to pay off the debt - And that’s not including the interest.

Mark decided to collect as much money as he could to help pay off that debt.

Iraq’s debt comes from foreign loans, war reparations and broken business contracts. Saddam Hussein’s regime borrowed money to build palaces and monuments but it also got debts of $76 billion buying weapons and defence equipment. Marconi, Racal and Thorn EMI sold defence material, and some companies like Matrix Churchill, later at the centre of the “Arms to Iraq” scandal, were some of the regime’s most cherished suppliers.

Arms companies amassed this debt, so Mark decided that, to pay it off, he would first rattle his tin at the arms dealers who trousered all the cash. ( I believe they donated 27 quid and a few pennies. It's a start, I suppose ).
----------------

The estimated reconstruction bill for Iraq is $20 billion. They will be lucky to get a fraction of that.

One of my teachers used to say that nothing was impossible Wazz. Maybe you are right. It is something I get told a lot. But we can put tin cans on Mars and countless other things that were once considered impossible. Very confusing... ;)

[FIATLOVE]

What about the REAL capital balance???

USA is the weakest point in western economy, USA has debt all over, they OWE OWE OWE, and certainly they know how to SPEND too :rolleyes:

Greeting from the only western country on earth that has NO debts


;)

(I envy New Zeelanders)


EDIT; I enjoyed page 2 here :D , well, back to topic;
It pleases me to see they finally have started to throw stones at each others.. :D
Latest news from us; we will now hopefully start to opposite against the Israelian walls and illegal occupations of land in Palestina

Take best care all!

[Spiderman2]

Are you from Lapland. Fiatlove? Can you lend me some money? Say 100 pounds Sterling? I'll pay it back, honestly, I will. :D

[FIATLOVE]

:monkey:



;) :HB:

[[XR]CARS]

Originally posted by FIATLOVE
USA is the weakest point in western economy

I don't think so.. the others countries in America have a lot of economic problems... except Canada and Costa Rica... maybe US has debt all over but they have no problem paying those debts.

[Sepecat]

I was mistaken to call the F-35 JSF the F/A-22 Raptor… I should have realized my mistake earlier, but I was indeed going with the image I had in my head of the Raptor….. They both have almost the same structure design.

George`

[FIATLOVE]

maybe US has debt all over but they have no problem paying those debts

Ehhhhh, so why why aren't they paying???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????+ (can't find a big enough rolleye)

[FIATLOVE]

I warn you!

If even one of you tries, I will post all debts and accounts!

AND COMMENTS!
EDIT; it will probably take up 100's of pages here, many 100's, just try me..)

This is getting political!

[Myshkin]

Heh is that some kind of threat? Go ahead and post them. Why aren't they paying what? The UN debt? Other money promised but not sent? As far as debt-debt, yes they are paying. Check out the interest payment alone when you look at a breakdown of our national budget.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpdodt.htm

[FIATLOVE]

Shall we start with the "latest"?, the Carnegie report...?


:Peace:

[FIATLOVE]

Mysh, you may are a a brilliant word-player, but you are well brain-washed too, can't you read account-numbers???? (or, do you run buisness bankrupt all the time in your job?)

I read alot of critics, also from US (that makes me glad), but let me ask; do you ever read european/asian (non-american) critics with an objective angle?

You are pretty good to talk Mysh, but you are BRAINWASHED!
I guess you have a nice life, living in a constant fright of terror, supporting gangsters like your administration.

Mysh, you better start read some OLD history books, you are a very bright person, you will see the clue...

Or maybe not

[Myshkin]

The two links I posted above should be enough... roughly 7 trillion dollars in debt, yearly interest paid was $318 billion in 2003. Which was paid. Which is why I wonder why you say they aren't paying, as the interest rate the US Gov pays on its debts is a central part of the economy. If they were to default, we would be in much worse condition than we are.

So tell me, what DEBT aren't they paying? Not money owed for some promise, but money borrowed that has been spent?

:Peace:

[Myshkin]

Nice rhetoric Fiatlove. Yes, I can read account numbers, and yes, the US is heavily in debt, and yes, if the US Govt were a business it would be out of business.

BUT as a percentage of income, it is not so bad. On that measuring stick there are plenty that are worse.

I am brainwashed? And you are not? What have I said? That they are paying their actual debts... okay if you don't want to believe that the $318 billion that went out last year was for interest, fine. I am brainwashed I guess.

I think the US debt is bad for us and bad for everyone else. I have not disputed that. But for you to suggest something that just isn't so... well whatever. Look, if we took our entire defense budget and used it to pay off debt (still paying interest separately) it would take 21 years to pay off.

Why yes, I do read foreign press. And are you suggesting that the european/asian press does not have their own bias? Everyone thinks that their own press is objective and fair, but it's not true ya know. They are all biased. About the only thing you can do is read what you can from both sides and try to figure out what the real story is.

I am thinking that you believe I watch CNN and read my local paper and that is how I come to my conclusions. Sorry, but that is not it.

We can disagree you know, but for you to say I am brainwashed because I have a different viewpoint is extreme.

So, prove your case.

P.S. For your information, I do not live in terror, in fact I fly regularly and do not give much thought to the media hype. Stop believing everything you read. Nor do I support GWB or this administration. And that is completely besides the point.

[FIATLOVE]

OK, as I said, this will take some hours ;)

But, I'll be back ^_^

<<<<<<< starts working, we have a free media here, as G.W.Bush said when he visitied us;
"It's exciting to visit a country with totally free speech and democracy"

:Peace:

[FIATLOVE]

Mysh, you are still BRAINWASHED!

I'm not, I'm just crazy


:monkey: :monkey: :monkey:

:Peace:

[FIATLOVE]

And; you better start read some history, then maybe we can hold this conversation alive some months :D

[Myshkin]

By the way, I added a couple of lines at the end of my last post.

Next thing of note:

Norway GDP: US$125 billion
Norway Pop: Est 5 million

USA GDP: $10.45 trillion
USA Pop: Est 280 million

Heh I just noticed that without oil activity, Norway's government would have been ~35 billion NOK in the hole last year. Thanks to a healthy jolt of nearly 200 billion NOK from oil, they come out with a surplus. That's the way to do it, don't you think?

Kroners are a little under 7/US$1, or so?

Edit: Got it, 6.72 NOK / US$

[Myshkin]

Hmmm and you assume I don't know any history. Okay. You say so.

You might want to consider that I didn't read the history that you know. I've tried various approaches in the two languages that I am proficient in, so excuse me if I have not read Norwegian history books. :)

Edit: Now you got me wondering, what about history? You mean how did we get to where we are? I ask because I wonder what part of history you are thinking about that has such a large bearing on the discussion at hand. Our debt has been rising steadily, with the exception of the few years pre-2001, for the past 22 years or so.

Or are you thinking of comparing the US to previous world powers that rose and fell... being interested in history, I've maintained in the discussions I've had here at Total that the US is in the same cycle that so many world powers have been in, going back to Egypt. And there is always a rise, a prosperous time, a turning point, and a fall. It seems to me that the cycle is quickening, and I think we have passed the turning point. I don't think there is a remedy, the fall is inevitable. I just hope we don't fall too far, too fast or take too many others with us.

[FIATLOVE]

UN debt is one small thing yes.

How can you rationalize to have "chair-control" in a matter, but not take the whole drawbacks?

An amazing thing about americans (regarding politicts) is the way you are able to overlook matters to the fully, just to please some ignoring monkeys, tha amazes me alot.

I can assure you; I am not representing the majority of my country, I'm a critical person, I am not eating things raw.

Mysh, you have just given me the authorithy to post numbers and comments

Thank you for letting me getting political, I'm looking forward to getting banned

^_^

[FIATLOVE]

By Mysh; Heh I just noticed that without oil activity, Norway's government would have been ~35 billion NOK in the hole last year. Thanks to a healthy jolt of nearly 200 billion NOK from oil, they come out with a surplus. That's the way to do it, don't you think?


Hey, I just have to say; YES, I agree fully with you!
I am ashamed of how we waste our BNP, my face are red all over!
This is what I fight against, most of my fellow-citizens think we are superb...

So, I will dig up alot of dirt (about all of us), and I hope we can have a realistic "cleanup" here, we all have alot of dirt to handle, that's what I'm saying.

I am ashamed of how we handle our wealth, so should you, that's my opinion.
If I can't convince you, I will still continue to be ashamed, as long my people act foolish.
And I will will try to take the punishement that comes.

That's just how I am.


My name is Matt ;)

[Myshkin]

Heh it amazes me that so many people in Europe and Asia take such a holier-than-thou attitude while completely stereo-typing a nationality. You have stereo-typed me because I question your statements, just asking for the information... I have not stereo-typed you.

This started with: what debts (meaning money borrowed or services received, no including the UN) that have not been repaid or are not being repaid?

[Myshkin]

Errk Fiatlove while I enjoy this type of discussion, my wife just came by and sounded the warning bell for bedtime. Feel free to slap my face if you must :D But go to bed I must, pretty soon.

Also, remember that I do not take anything said here to heart... I have not been putting my :) 's and :Peace: 's but I will try to more often so that you can be sure that I am fine.

And please, if I manage to offend you let me know, I dislike being unpleasant to people in places of leisure such as this.

:Peace:

[Myshkin]

And on another final note: I have not made the argument that the US is using its wealth wisely. I am not of that opinion. And I am still against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I got into this just because:

a) the actual debt-to-GDP comparisons support what Ingcars said.
b) you were asking for a challenge, and no one else stood up.

P.S. Hi Matt, pleased to meet you. My name is Michael :)

[FIATLOVE]

:hug: :shake: cya maty ;)


Mads

edit;

b) you were asking for a challenge, and no one else stood up.

^_^ (I knew you would show up :D )

:Peace:

[Myshkin]

Heh and before he sticks his head back in here, I acknowledge for the record that Spiderman believes he has the solution to the cycle, which historically has been bad for everyone but much worse for the poor. And the high part of the cycle is not exactly a walk in the garden for the poor either.

Brainwashed? Maybe I am, by my reality. By the people I meet, by the life I observe. I do not say this from my high horse, I say this as a human: At our worst WE are still not much more than animals, and our society, in my eyes, mimics evolution. There are weak and strong of mind and body... perhaps you believe the strong can learn to not dominate the weak but carry them. I don't think it likely, but I guess it's possible. I don't think I've ever claimed to be a genius, in fact I am pretty sure that I am not.

:Peace:

Edit: :eek: YOU TROLLED ME!!!! Grrrrrrrrr :D

[FIATLOVE]

Kroners are a little under 7/US$1, or so?

Edit: Got it, 6.72 NOK / US$


Ahh, this is wonderful, thank's!

Yep, we finally managed to decrease abit, we was up at 8+ 6 months back. Lower values means better exports for us, and it helps to keep debt-rates low.

Talkin about exchange, US $ is not very strong either, infact it has been very low for a long long time now, not only compared to NOK, but to Euros too, last 5 weeks $ has been rising ;), still it's very low, surpisingly low regarding that you have been in war for a year now (I am familiar with imports of TREK, KLEIN, GARY FISHER, ROCK SHOX etc., and I also did that in the early 90's.....) :D (I kept your "aero-welders" alive after cold-war) ;)

[FIATLOVE]

By Mysh;
Brainwashed? Maybe I am, by my reality. By the people I meet, by the life I observe. I do not say this from my high horse, I say this as a human: At our worst WE are still not much more than animals, and our society, in my eyes, mimics evolution. There are weak and strong of mind and body... perhaps you believe the strong can learn to not dominate the weak but carry them. I don't think it likely, but I guess it's possible. I don't think I've ever claimed to be a genius, in fact I am pretty sure that I am not.


Dang, do this means that I have to like you :confused:

Thank's same Michael! :)

[meinherr]

Well , its about Time ! The US should of Bombed England Years ago when they had the Chance ! I just Hope Canada , Mexico , France and Germany are Next on the List ! ( Tempered sarcasm ) . ;)

[Myshkin]

:wave:

Woo hoo! Irrelevant note: I just got Mozilla Firebird working on an old PC (AMD 600) loaded with Linux Mandrake 9.2, and this is my first post from said machine. O/S works great!

[Mysh thinks he hears his wife mumbling threats in her sleep :eek: ]

[Myshkin]

:eek:

[Wazza]

nice looking machine Mysh! :)

Cool little debate you guys had going.

Goodnight, hope you really are in bed, or I think the boss would be doing more than just mumbling in her sleep. ;)

PS. Now I wonder why us foreign nations have these views?>
I tell you, just look at some of our own news or sites... Fully bring down USA and the Bush administration. Bad decisions, bad debt, bad relationships. - Well that's what the media leads us to beleive.

One thing I do like sorry, is the great exchange rate. I've never seen things so cheap before.
April 2002, $1NZ = 42 US cents
Jan 2004, $1NZ = 70 cents...

Good luck for our friendly Americans, and may the debt be paid off - so we have something else on the news, such as great explorers, new gadgets etc. Rather than the current, War, death, war, death, US debt,.

)=)

[TEN]

hey, easy now Mads or ur gonna get us bombed too :D ;)

jk

[Spiderman2]

Originally posted by Myshkin
Heh and before he sticks his head back in here, I acknowledge for the record that Spiderman believes he has the solution to the cycle, which historically has been bad for everyone but much worse for the poor. And the high part of the cycle is not exactly a walk in the garden for the poor either.



^_^

Brother, we will overcome one sunny day. The dawn of real democratic socialism has yet to come. The Russians only opened the door in 1917. The capitalists closed it, enclosed it in barbed wire and starved it to death. The revolution was throttled practically at birth. All the revolutions since, even those that flew the red flag were in reality Nationalist (anti imperialist) revolutions in disguise.

Usury, like war, causes more misery than it solves.

:Peace:

edit: typo

[Spiderman2]

Mysh, most of these quotes are not directed at you. A few are. I'm sure you can spot them.

William H. Hastie
"Democracy is a process, not a static condition. It is becoming rather than being. It can easily be lost, but is never fully won. Its essence is eternal struggle."

Mary Parker Follett
"We are not wholly patriotic when we are working with all our heart for America merely; we are truly patriotic only when we are working also that America may take her place worthily and helpfully in the world of nations . . . Interdependence is the keynote of the relations of nations as it is the keynote of the relations of individuals within nations."

James Fenimore Cooper
"The vulgar charge that the tendency of democracies is to leveling, meaning to drag all down to the level of the lowest, is singularly untrue; its real tendency being to elevate the depressed to a condition not unworthy of their manhood."

Louis D. Brandeis
"We can have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth in a few hands, but we can't have both."

Mahatma Ghandhi
"For me patriotism is the same as humanity. I am patriotic because I am human and humane. It is not exclusive. I will not hurt England or Germany to serve India . . . My patriotism is inclusive and admits of no enmity or ill-will."

George Washington, Farewell Address
"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."

In his Militarism, USA, a sober critique based on years of experience in the U.S. Marine Corps, Colonel James A. Donovan:
identifies the dangerous patriot:
"the one who drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions. He is a defender of militarism and its ideals of war and glory. Chauvinism is a proud and bellicose form of patriotism . . . which identifies numerous enemies who can only be dealt with through military power and which equates the national honor with military victory."

In The Reason for Democracy, published after his death in 1976, Kalman Silvert of New York University provided another pungent description of false patriots:
"People who wrap themselves in the flag and proclaim the sanctity of the nation are usually racists, contemptuous of the poor and dedicated to keeping the community of 'ins' small and pure of blood, spirit and mind."

Bertram Gross
In Germany today the true patriots are those who, among other things, are trying to come to grips with the essence of past Nazi horrors. In the Soviet Union the true patriots are those who try to understand the nature and roots of Stalinism and the Stalinist legacy, rather than simply uttering some words about "the cult of personality" and running away from the subject. In America the true patriots are those who face the fact that Americans have always been both right and wrong and, instead of trying to squelch criticism, calmly take the position "My country right and wrong." They are those who defend the good, the true, and the beautiful in American life. They are willing to take risks in attacking what is wrong...

--------------

Things change whether we like it or not. The eventual revolution will not be like the 1917 revolution as the 1917 revolution was not like the 1871 revolution (Paris) or the 1848 revolution (France) or the American revolutionary war. What they all had in common was decades of preperation and discussion. Without that precondition, the spark, will not ignite the fuse. We will instead run around like headless chickens.

:Peace:

edit
No need to lose sleep over this Mysh. I am not here for a fight. I don't need the hassle and I don't want to upset people.

[KyzrSoze]

Another:

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

[WCOutlaw]

Wow Kyzr, that's a nice quote -^ sounds VERY apt for some current affairs.

[[SK]Tammy]

Btw, the USAF dropped a bomb on Eastern England! :)

:love:

Tammy

[KyzrSoze]

Call in the S.W.A.T. team, this thread has been hijacked!:D ^_^

[Spiderman2]

I forgot about that. We demand reperations. Say $380 billion dollars and we forget the whole thing. Taking your planes and bombs home would be good too. Come back on holiday whenever you like. ;)

[[SK]Tammy]

The US are pulling out of the UK. Lakenheath is one of the first and I think the largest bases that will close.

:love:

Tammy

[Spiderman2]

Brill! :) When did this happen? Do you think we should buy them a goodbye and good luck present?

[Myshkin]

:HB: :Peace: About time. I never did understand why we were there. Except to drop the occasional dud practice bomb on the countryside to scare you blokes.

No present needed Spidey, just a toast perhaps to the end of the occupation :)

[Spiderman2]

OK, a slice of toast and maybe a card. Drop in anytime, FOR A FEW WEEKS. Unless you want to be British in which case welcome brothers and sisters, make yourselves at home.

:beer: :Peace:

[Baritone Black]

It's always at least a bit unsettling when a shot misses the mark.

I think the US debt is bad for us and bad for everyone else. I have not disputed that. But for you to suggest something that just isn't so... well whatever. Look, if we took our entire defense budget and used it to pay off debt (still paying interest separately) it would take 21 years to pay off.

P.S. For your information, I do not live in terror, in fact I fly regularly and do not give much thought to the media hype. Stop believing everything you read. Nor do I support GWB or this administration. And that is completely besides the point.

Amen!

Or are you thinking of comparing the US to previous world powers that rose and fell... being interested in history, I've maintained in the discussions I've had here at Total that the US is in the same cycle that so many world powers have been in, going back to Egypt. And there is always a rise, a prosperous time, a turning point, and a fall. It seems to me that the cycle is quickening, and I think we have passed the turning point. I don't think there is a remedy, the fall is inevitable. I just hope we don't fall too far, too fast or take too many others with us.


The rising national deficit reduces foreign confidence in the Dollar, which can drop its value significantly, resulting in severe economic hardship in America. It has happened before, although somehow I can't remember when off the top of my head (:help: if you remember).

George Washington, Farewell Address "Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."

In The Reason for Democracy, published after his death in 1976, Kalman Silvert of New York University provided another pungent description of false patriots: "People who wrap themselves in the flag and proclaim the sanctity of the nation are usually racists, contemptuous of the poor and dedicated to keeping the community of 'ins' small and pure of blood, spirit and mind."

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."


I thank you both for my new sig quotes.

[Spiderman2]

Cheer up my yankee friends. The dollars plunge does not mean life is all bad. It means cheaper holidays over there for Brits, yes. It means cheaper imports from the US, yes. Neither of these facts is good for the British economy under the present system. The cheap dollar means British exports to the US are more expensive and we will have fewer American visitors here because it is more expensive. Manufacturer's here are hoping mad as is the tourist industry. It's a crazy system... Makes the mind boggle sometimes. Speculators who gambled on a strong dollar lose. So not all bad then. ;)

[Myshkin]

Well that's no good, because speculators who bet on a weak dollar won. That's a washout, I'm afraid. And the Brit tourists and consumers of US products are happy. One wins the other loses, back and forth.

Damn, I guess I'm going to have to put off buying that Rolls-Royce :'(

[Spiderman2]

And I will have to put off buying that... wait a minute... there must be something I want. I'll be back... later.

[Spiderman2]

Gottit. A cheap contract on the mutha that killed Bamby's mommie! That sucka!

[Spiderman2]

Seriously. I can't think of any American products. Don't think I can ever remember seeing 'made in the USA' on anything I bought. Ever.

[Myshkin]

You wouldn't have to hold off buying it either... as a Brit consumer you can buy US products cheaper.

I haven't bought anything made in England either ya know... except my first Rolls Royce. Perhaps trade between our great and glorious nations is only on paper and electrons.

[Spiderman2]

Yeah. Patriotism ends at the pocket they say. Our great patriotic companies certainly know that. They ship out at the first sight of cheaper labour abroad.

[Spiderman2]

Now Interest rates. They have been at record low levels for some years. Millions here have been seduced into borrowing huge amounts. Live today, pay tomorrow. Tick, tick, tick...

[Myshkin]

Thank God for low interest rates. The house I was trying to build myself kept falling on my head. Then I tried to convince some carpenters to build it for me, but they said something about having to eat. I asked God for help, but only received silence in return. Then this banker accosted me and threw money at me. Sure, I was able to provide a living for the carpenters that built my house, but now this banker keeps calling me every month for money, the parasitic bastard. There should be laws against people like him.

:)

[Spiderman2]

Maybe rates will stay low. Maybe most people have considered what it really means, those few percentage points that inevitably will come. It isn't just mortgage rates I'm referring to, bad enough if the rates start to spiral, but also the credit cards that make spending power instant. The APR on these types of borrowing is really scary. Most people have no real idea of what it really means. They should teach that at school. The more wealthy that some people feel due to perceived property values, the more they indebt themselves. My advice is don't do it. The listening bank won't listen, the bank that likes to say yes will say no when things turn sour. Read the small print.

edit: Live within your means. Think ahead. Don't be a victim.

[Sepecat]

Originally posted by Spiderman2
Yeah. Patriotism ends at the pocket they say. Our great patriotic companies certainly know that. They ship out at the first sight of cheaper labour abroad.

It is not just Cheap Labor, But those Cheap Laborers you call, are very Highly Educated Professionals, that speak not only good English but are much Nicer to Customers than their High Paid Counterparts in the UK or US…

That’s why I support Outsourcing to Countries like India…

Just today the UK based Company; Abbey is moving 400 jobs to India… They are not the First nor will they be the last… 400 is nothing compared to HSBC shifting 4000 Jobs to India and China… Aviva, the UK's largest insurer also plans to move about 2,350 jobs to India.

The Union there are complying about the Jobs moving to other countries to the Government, but Tony Blair said he is not going to do anything about this… Even the British Railway is planning on contracting work in India for Customer Service…

In order for the companies to make money they need to reduce their costs and one of the Costs are Employees… If you can find people with Good Education and Speaks English and willing to work for half what it pays its Employees here, of course they would move jobs…

In the day and age, most companies are moving jobs to India and China, so in order for other companies to stay competitive they too must move jobs to India and China.

George`

[Spiderman2]

Good points George. I must admit I have heard some pretty cheap shots at foriegn workers due to work like this being sent abroad. It sucks to see British workers losing their livelihoods. But it doesn't mean we have to blame Idian workers or Chinese workers because of that. I just made the point about patriotism and our business classes' lack of it. It's a complex issue and not a new one by any means. It has always been like that.

[Myshkin]

Errr Rob my interest rate is fixed for the life of the loan. If I had chosen a variable rate, I might have gotten a lower % right now, but then what you say would be true. Beware low variable interest rates, and credit cards in general unless you can use them and pay them off fully each month. If you pay them off fully, then credit cards are really convenient, that is what I use for my work travel.

P.S. Credit cards give you a better foreign exchange rate than any currency exchanger I've seen :) Often they do it at near market rates, at no cost for their customers... yes they are hoping you don't pay everything and give up some interest, but like you say, live within your means and it's not a bad deal.

[Spiderman2]

Would you be prepared to work for same as say workers in Brazil, George? If you have a mortgage and debts do you think the bank would understand if you tried to renegotiate your borrowing? Perhaps if your company gave you some decent notice you could start looking for a new job or retrain for a new employer. The new in thing for employers here is to send a text message saying "don't bother coming in next week." When it becomes personal then understanding the 'business necessity' takes a back seat to the feeling of betrayal and anger. Too late. Nobody will want to listen. People will shrug their shoulders if they are still sitting pretty.

Night, night.

[[SK]Tammy]

I must resist! I must resist! I must resist! DOH!

Originally posted by nfs350r
It is not just Cheap Labor, But those Cheap Laborers you call, are very Highly Educated Professionals, that speak not only good English but are much Nicer to Customers than their High Paid Counterparts in the UK or US…

Absolute rubbish! When was the last time you phoned a call center and got an Indian worker George?

I do it every month in order to try and get my insurance checks, and I can tell you that it normally takes 3 or 4 calls and a lot of "can you repeat that please" before they finally realise what you are talking about or you can understand that they are indeed going to send the check out.


Originally posted by nfs350r
That’s why I support Outsourcing to Countries like India…

:nono:

Not good.

Originally posted by nfs350r
Just today the UK based Company; Abbey is moving 400 jobs to India… They are not the First nor will they be the last… 400 is nothing compared to HSBC shifting 4000 Jobs to India and China… Aviva, the UK's largest insurer also plans to move about 2,350 jobs to India.
And earlier this week the largest building society, Nationwide, said it was to stay in the UK because of its loyalty to its members, customers, workers and suppliers.

Also this week was a survey that said many of the companies who have moved to India are losing customers because of the poor customer service, language barriers and disloyalty.

UK staff can answer calls quicker and more efficiently than people in India.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3389077.stm

Originally posted by nfs350r
The Union there are complying about the Jobs moving to other countries to the Government, but Tony Blair said he is not going to do anything about this… Even the British Railway is planning on contracting work in India for Customer Service…

And how is someone in India going to know how to get from Watford to Bedford via Milton Keynes on the railway? How are they going to understand those words? Answer is that they won't.

Originally posted by nfs350r
In order for the companies to make money they need to reduce their costs and one of the Costs are Employees… If you can find people with Good Education and Speaks English and willing to work for half what it pays its Employees here, of course they would move jobs…

The best business quote is actually:

"In order to make money you have to invest, not cut back."

Both our countries are moving rapidly into deep recesions George. Mr Blair for one overestimated the demand for skilled people in the UK and flooded the market with migrants. The IT industry has lost 250,000 jobs since September 2003 on all levels. Most of the jobs have gone to India.

Originally posted by nfs350r
In the day and age, most companies are moving jobs to India and China, so in order for other companies to stay competitive they too must move jobs to India and China.

George`

The honeymoon period is over George. If the government in the UK don't act soon, they will know their fate. Also there are a growing number of people being selective about who they do business with. If a company has outsourced to India then they will not deal with them and take their business elsewhere. Many companies will find out the hard way that they made a big mistake.

I would like to add that I have nothing against India and its people. The simple fact is that Indian people can't seriously service a call center for British or American people. We welcome doing business with Indian companies and people but this nonsense has to stop, and soon!

Tammy

[Spiderman2]

Mysh,

It's good if you have a fixed interest rate and can guarantee repayment. Not many people can. And not many banks are prepared to wait if plans go wrong. Britain is sitting on a debt time bomb. Watch this space.

[[SK]Tammy]

Originally posted by Spiderman2
Britain is sitting on a debt time bomb. Watch this space.

Absolutely spot on!

People are losing their jobs, having to take a lower paid alternative and are getting into huge amounts of debt.

The future is bleak.

Tammy

[Sepecat]

Absolute rubbish! When was the last time you phoned a call center and got an Indian worker George?

I do it every month in order to try and get my insurance checks, and I can tell you that it normally takes 3 or 4 calls and a lot of "can you repeat that please" before they finally realize what you are talking about or you can understand that they are indeed going to send the check out.

The last time I spoke to someone in India, either be it in Bangalore or New Delhi was few months ago. I call Dell on inquires on new products to technical support… Most times my calls are routed to India, and I’ve experienced wait of 25 minutes once, but usually I get someone within a very few minutes…

Well one reasons I have no problems with Dell, is one I am usually not in a hurry and secondly I can understand what the technicians in New Delhi and Bangalore says to me. Maybe it because in the Gas Station Business you run into many Indians. I have grown to understand them. All my calls that were routed to India were good. However some of the calls that went to Customer Service in Texas, it did not go well.

Some time last month or before, Dell said it moving the Customer Services for Business Customers such as me, back here. I am not very pleased with the move, but then again I haven’t called Dell in sometime.

Dell is the only company that I have dealt with has a Call Center in India. Other Companies I call are based somewhere here in the USA.

I am sorry that you had experiences with Indians; however I never had any problems with the Indians.

Tammy here is a Very Good Article about India and Outsourcing..

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_49/b3861001_mz001.htm

George`

[Myshkin]

Hmmm interesting. I can't guarantee repayment, that would be silly for me to suggest, but fixed rate loans are a norm over here. A normal HUD (Gov't program, Housing and Urban Development) loan is fixed and backed by the Gov't. I don't have an HUD though, I have a normal mortgage.

Perhaps you all recall that when I moved to Austin I stayed with my wife's family until we found a place to live? The house we stayed in has been repossessed. My wife's aunt got TB in Mexico and couldn't work anymore... yet there were two other wage earners in the house, and she got unemployment (still is getting it). Between the three of them with her on unemployment, they made more than I do after taxes. Yet they didn't pay their bills. I am still not exactly sure why, or where they money they made went.

Before the repossession, there were a total of 6 months unpaid mortgage. In that time, the mortgage company tried to restructure the mortgage, offered to work something out, lower payments while she was on unemployment but they would lose some of their principal... but no, they decided to try to sell the house. For US$120,000. This is a house that, considering the area, would normally go for maybe $90,000. I told them to just lower it to something reasonable, take the first offer and get out breaking even, at least. Well, they could not sell it (don't know who would bother looking at such an overpriced house) so they lost all principal and now have a big red mark on their credit.

The way you make it sound, Rob, it would be like, "you miss a payment, we take your house". They will try to work something out, some companies are better than others. If you decide to go your own way, good luck. But in the end, they are living in an apartment now, they eat fine, they just don't have a chance to buy another house in the near future. The "rent game", which is even worse than the "mortgage game". It wasn't the end of the world.

With this anecdote I am not trying to argue, just to put things into perspective from my point of view. Perhaps my wife and I both lose our jobs and can't pay the mortgage someday, stay unemployed for more than a year (don't know exactly how long unemployment runs right now), we sell our possessions but still can't make ends meet. As it is right now, there are still jobs to be done. I've had two jobs before and I could probably do it again.

Credit card debts are a real problem... do you all have the public services over there that help people manage their debt?

[Spiderman2]

We do have public services like Citizens Advice Bureau which is struggling to cope with the debt problem.

There was a time when banks would not lend more than three and a half times yearly salary. But prices of flats and houses are now so high that five and a half times yearly salary is becoming the norm. Not many new borrowers could join the market otherwise. So inflated prices bring inflated equity - which brings extra borrowing on the 'strength' of that equity for those already in the market for a few years. This is all very well, so long as the prices maintain their value. But like Japan in the late eighties it is highly unlikely that these 'values' will remain fixed at these crazy levels. London is particularly afflicted by (unbelievably) high housing costs in both mortgage and renting sectors. But it is now a National problem.

We have very little in the way of legislation to protect people from the banks and other lenders that are pulling all the stops out to get in on the action.

$100k for a house is an idle dream here. If you want a studio flat in London (basically a cupboard) it will cost you £100k-£150k+. If you want a house then £250k- £350k is the norm. Just over a decade ago the prices were £30k for the cupboard and £80k for a decent sized house. Wages are more or less pegged due to 'low' inflation. But inflation figures are fiddled by government (they decided to remove mortgages from the equation). People juggle their expenses and borrow from Jack to pay Paul. Banks and employers own our arses. People cannot afford to lose their jobs so they put up with all kinds of crap.

If this craziness can be maintained (by keeping the borrowing rate low) then perhaps disaster can be averted for a time. But then even more people will be pulled in.

It is too late to rethink our financies even if we wanted to. We are on this ride whatever the outcome because we don't have control of the brake. The banks have that but they are scared to use it. It may cause panic. WOOOHOOO!

[Myshkin]

Heh that's one reason I moved from California to Austin... just one reason though, there are others. I could never afford to buy a house in California, especially in southern California. The house my parents bought in 1976 for US$60,000 is now worth 8 times that, and the real estate market has crashed pretty bad at least once in the last 15 years or so.

I don't know how things work there, but I am assuming that you have a basic bankruptcy law as well, so people can get out from under crushing debt with something, at least. Perhaps someone here has had a bankruptcy? It's not too uncommon now, I know a few that have done it at some point, none recently though.

I do understand what you mean though. The home equity loans seem to be popular here as well... at least with the banks. It seems like a good idea if you are doing repairs to the house or something that will increase the value (even if the housing market crashes) but some people probably raid their equity to go on vacations or buy plasma TV screens.

I don't know how much longer California will be able to sustain their housing prices. What I spent for a decent house in Austin would not have gotten me a condo in South-Central Los Angeles. On the other hand, if I had gone another 20-30 miles out from Austin, I would have paid probably 75% for the same house. Downtown the price would be about double. Which leads us to "suburban sprawl", which is a whole other can of worms and whole other discussion.

Must do some work now. Boss is cracking the whip...

[Sepecat]

Originally posted by Myshkin
Must do some work now. Boss is cracking the whip...

So, the Wife’s home, Eh?

George`

[Spiderman2]

There is no bankruptcy law for private individuals. Your debt is for life. No escape.

Our last major property crash was in the early 80's. The next one will make that look like a joke. People have short memories. Our situation (UK) is very different from most industialised countries. We have little protection, few laws and almost complete deregulation. It is a paradise for speculators and loan sharks.

[[SK]Tammy]

Sorry Spiderman, not true! :D

My uncle filed for personal bankrupcy and was able to start again fresh. I think he can even get credit again now. :eek:

:love:

Tammy

[Spiderman2]

I bow to your superior knowledge Tammy. I have never heard of a private individual without a business getting or seeking bankrupcy. The normal route is 'Individual Voluntary Arrangements' with debt management companies.

[Sepecat]

I think Florida and Texas has one of the lenient Bankruptcy Laws in the Country. I think in this States you can easily get away from creditors.

Look at what OJ Simpson is doing. The reason he moved to Florida, is when in the Civil Lawsuit the Court award money to Nicole’s parents. So he packed up and moved and the State can’t take his money or property. Something like that… I really am not familiar with that case, but that what I remember from some TV show.


George`

[Volt !]

Hey George Tammy Rob All :wave:

Originally posted by nfs350r
That’s why I support Outsourcing to Countries like India…

Just today the UK based Company; Abbey is moving 400 jobs to India… They are not the First nor will they be the last… 400 is nothing compared to HSBC shifting 4000 Jobs to India and China… Aviva, the UK's largest insurer also plans to move about 2,350 jobs to India.

I agree with u George but only on few points.
India is great place to live in provided you have a good salary.But most of the Indians donot to this category.

George , believe me, i live in India.I know wat is the condition here.People flock abroad the moment they get get an opportunity.The quality of jobs here is very poor.You are made to work 10 hrs a day.
You can take any profession, Teaching,Law etc.It is not as glamorous as it seems.
The average salary of an Indian here will be equivalent to the same figure but in dollars for the same job in US, and the conversion rate is 1 US $ is around 50 Rs.
There is definitely cheap labour here.That is because of the huge population.You mentioned India and China. both these countries scale upto 1 billion Human Population each.So obviously labour is cheap.
for evey job there are around 10 ppl. So there is a huge list of unemployment.And that is the only reason why companies like to move to Inida.
Think about it.The jobs that the Insurance company must be giving will have an average Salary of 15000 Rupees which is aroun 300 $ per month. Dont you think that is cheap labour???
Wat would be the salary of the people , had the same company moved to US?
Definitely more than 300$ p.m.

Take Care

- Andy !

[Wazza]

In NZ, bankruptcy is stuck to you for 7 long years.

I know someone in that situation. It's really hard to get anything approved, such as a home loan, so often you have to go with only your partners income soley (if you have one).

[FIATLOVE]

No need to look further on the EF topic in this thread either?

;)



8)~

[Spiderman2]

I didn't really understand it Fiatlove. Are you saying we are running out of space and resources?

edit: I think we thrashed that one to death some time ago.

also spelling. English is my third language, after cockney and vulgar.

[FIATLOVE]

Ehh Spidermaty, I though you was an international socialist???

Well, please take a further look to the stats at http://www.globalis.no/index.cfm?region=custom&MinX=-19000000&MinY=-12809428&MaxX=19900000&MaxY=14309428&indicatorid=0&indyear=0&isspecial=false&lyrbg=1&lyrcity=0&lyrcoast=1&lyrcountryb=1&lyrgeogrid=0&lyrlabel=0&lyrlake=0&lyrland=1&lyrmine=0&lyrmineral=0&lyrtheme=landcover&lang=en

You will find hundreds of stats regarding the "situation" we are in, and maybe you will understand why some people want to have the moon (or mars) as a reserve planet to escape to....


;)

(IMPORTANT!!!

If you click on Norwegian language, then translate, you mauy get some additional information versa the english version ;)

It's called free speech (just abit covered) ^_^

[Spiderman2]

Yikes. It would take me years to go through that list! I suppose if we take national borders as unmovable objects and populations as static for ever ( except in projected growth terms ;) ) then the data would make sense. We don't agree with either of those propositions. We also think that much of our resources are mis-managed and wasted.

edit: seen your edit and checking it now. I hope I know where to begin... ;)

edit2: How do you spell translate in Norway? :confused: ^_^

edit3: still haven't found it... Trying the video. Think I have wrong language... Also getting a bit hypnotized by thing going round and round.

[Spiderman2]

Sorry man. I didn't get far in Norwegian. I like the site though. Very clever. Shame there is no vid for us stupido Engleski's.

edit: There is no escape. If people think Earth is bad then the rest of our solar system is no replacement. We are stuck with this lonesome planet I'm afraid. We manage it better or we screw it.

edit: Not aimed at you FIATLOVER. It seems to me that the people who trumpet human inginuity the most despise the people of this planet the most. They seem scared and disgusted by the people who have least. Maybe they believe that there is not enough to go around. That if they have to share they will get less (than they deserve). They see the masses as a plague. There are many schools of thought ready and willing to exploit this mistaken belief. It doesn't have to be challenged. We can just believe bad science and bad morals. The future is not yet mapped but they believe it is. God help us if they ever get their way.

edit again: That is a very interesting site Fiatlover. It's an unequal world indeed.

.

[Spiderman2]

Famines are rarley caused by food shortages. The case more often being bad distribution and export of food to markets that can afford it, often for animal feed. Natural disasters are rarely natural but man made. Horrid facts really. Facts that most people are kept in the dark about. Don't change the model because the model suits us. Invent excuses to cover the problems. We blame the victims because it is easier. Force the poor nations of the world to accept our model. Even when they do and the model fails then we still blame them. They are either too lazy or too damn stupid we are told.

[FIATLOVE]

Hey there is a english language-button there too

But if using Norwegian, the text will be extended, telling some "secrets".
Look at it as a way of "diplomacy" ^_^


:Peace:

[FIATLOVE]

Spider, this does not only is about food, this about ALL resources on earth, how they are divided and used, who use what, who pollutes how much, and so on.

These tables show that some countries steals from others, and the ripped ones are the only who don't waste our earth.

As you say yourself, you don't want to waste to much of your time to argue and fight, because it will not lead to anything anyway, just alot of arguing.

So, if you really care, please read and learn, then cry, but don't yell at me.

My name is Matthew


;)

[FIATLOVE]

And if you want to know who rips who, history books are the way to go.

England... tea
Holland... diamonds
and so on (I did not say anything bad about our grand big uncle Sam, I guess he has never stealed in his life ever, he is clean as.....
George Bush ;-))

where did the countries get their wealth from in the beginning?
What is done by these wealthy countries today regarding making this world (and the robbed lands) to a better state (IMO the world needs nursery...)?

Edit; But, if this topic is stressing too much, lets talk about real estate and interest rates instead..


^_^

[FIATLOVE]

Norway;

one of the wealthiest countries, also one of the most polluting.
We use "alot" money on the paper, giving to 3rd world.

And as Myshkin said some days ago, we have pretty good economy (or do we?)

Look at our yearly results.
Then compare wit Sweden and Denmark.

Now you will see that we have ca. same results... &(

So, how great are Norway?
How would Norway been without oil?
With oil, we can do almost as good as the swedes, danes and finns.

Wow, what a fantastic successful country we are.

Then, we support 3rd world with 50 percent compared to what Denmark does.

:o

Try read the stats, they are GRUSOM REAL

Still they hides alot;
try seek for AIDS in "our" world..
Seems like we ain't plagued with it? ;)
And everybody can read and write in the industrial world?
And there are no poors?





Have a nice day :Peace:

[FIATLOVE]

AND;

try to check out births by yong womans between 16 and 24, check out USA!!!

social state...

Young parents = low social education and all what that takes..

[Spiderman2]

I'm not arguing with you Matthew, because I agree with you on all your main points. on so called aid "beware Greeks bearing gifts". So called aid is rarely given without strings. Loans are even worse. Yes, aids is a massive problem especially in Africa. Slavery is worse than in 'the days of slavery'. Theft of resources vital to the west is swept under the carpet. The four horsemen of the apocalypse are galloping along in the 21st Century.

The relative poverty rates of the US and UK are no small problem either. Child poverty rates are around 30%. Those that can get by get by those that can't flood our mental health system or prisons. The gap between rich and poor is ever widening.

But they tell me the World Health Organization, the UN and many charities are coping with all this.

As for our fellow species on this planet? Difficult one. We need their stuff. They are unproductive and lazy. We prefer looking for life elsewhere in the universe while destroying it here on Earth if it interferes with business or is more valuable dead.

Teenage pregnancy rates in the UK and US are a scandal. Let's not talk about unemployment figures, depression, homelessness, drug taking, alcohol taking and crime. None of these things are the fault of our model society... Some do quite well. ;)

[Spiderman2]

Originally posted by FIATLOVE
And if you want to know who rips who, history books are the way to go.

England... tea
Holland... diamonds
and so on (I did not say anything bad about our grand big uncle Sam, I guess he has never stealed in his life ever, he is clean as.....
George Bush ;-))

where did the countries get their wealth from in the beginning?
What is done by these wealthy countries today regarding making this world (and the robbed lands) to a better state (IMO the world needs nursery...)?

Edit; But, if this topic is stressing too much, lets talk about real estate and interest rates instead..


^_^

You could do worse than read the Communist Manifesto. Written at a time when the only capitalist countries on Earth were England and Belgium. Modern capitalism was still in infancy yet its logic had already been unlocked by Marx, Engels and a few others. Still relevent today. Remarkably so.

The history of all hitherto existing society [2] is the history of class struggles.

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebian, lord and serf, guild-master [3] and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

In the earlier epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold gradation of social rank. In ancient Rome we have patricians, knights, plebians, slaves; in the Middle Ages, feudal lords, vassals, guild-masters, journeymen, apprentices, serfs; in almost all of these classes, again, subordinate gradations.

The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society has not done away with class antagonisms. It has but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones.

Our epoch, the epoch of the bourgeoisie, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other -- bourgeoisie and proletariat.

From the serfs of the Middle Ages sprang the chartered burghers of the earliest towns. From these burgesses the first elements of the bourgeoisie were developed.

The discovery of America, the rounding of the Cape, opened up fresh ground for the rising bourgeoisie. The East-Indian and Chinese markets, the colonisation of America, trade with the colonies, the increase in the means of exchange and in commodities generally, gave to commerce, to navigation, to industry, an impulse never before known, and thereby, to the revolutionary element in the tottering feudal society, a rapid development.

The feudal system of industry, in which industrial production was monopolized by closed guilds, now no longer suffices for the growing wants of the new markets. The manufacturing system took its place. The guild-masters were pushed aside by the manufacturing middle class; division of labor between the different corporate guilds vanished in the face of division of labor in each single workshop.

Meantime, the markets kept ever growing, the demand ever rising. Even manufacturers no longer sufficed. Thereupon, steam and machinery revolutionized industrial production. The place of manufacture was taken by the giant, MODERN INDUSTRY; the place of the industrial middle class by industrial millionaires, the leaders of the whole industrial armies, the modern bourgeois.

Modern industry has established the world market, for which the discovery of America paved the way. This market has given an immense development to commerce, to navigation, to communication by land. This development has, in turn, reacted on the extension of industry; and in proportion as industry, commerce, navigation, railways extended, in the same proportion the bourgeoisie developed, increased its capital, and pushed into the background every class handed down from the Middle Ages.

We see, therefore, how the modern bourgeoisie is itself the product of a long course of development, of a series of revolutions in the modes of production and of exchange.

Each step in the development of the bourgeoisie was accompanied by a corresponding political advance in that class. An oppressed class under the sway of the feudal nobility, an armed and self-governing association of medieval commune [4]: here independent urban republic (as in Italy and Germany); there taxable "third estate" of the monarchy (as in France); afterward, in the period of manufacturing proper, serving either the semi-feudal or the absolute monarchy as a counterpoise against the nobility, and, in fact, cornerstone of the great monarchies in general -- the bourgeoisie has at last, since the establishment of Modern Industry and of the world market, conquered for itself, in the modern representative state, exclusive political sway. The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie.

The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.

The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his "natural superiors", and has left no other nexus between people than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment". It has drowned out the most heavenly ecstacies of religious fervor, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom -- Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.

The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers.

The bourgeoisie has torn away from the family its sentimental veil, and has reduced the family relation into a mere money relation.

The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigor in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man's activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former exoduses of nations and crusades.

The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real condition of life and his relations with his kind.

The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere.

The bourgeoisie has, through its exploitation of the world market, given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of reactionaries, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilized nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilization. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it forces the barbarians' intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilization into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.


Manifesto (http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html)

[FIATLOVE]

Myshkin;
I want to appologie my offending to you some days back, I went far over the edge.

Still, most western countries are overspending and overconsuming, and they are not paying down debts, the only countries that pays debt is the poor ones

Spiderman :) That was nice reading, thx -^

I'm not a commu at all but I acknowledge the theory.
I think that "our" systems works well, mostly, yet it has it's black spots.
Communism has showed itself it can't work in real because of the human nature, we can't stay modest when put into leading roles and blahblah.



Cultures crashing
It's abit strange that europeans and asians agrees and undestands each other better than europeans versa americans, because there are wide difference in our lifestyles and ways of thinking, not so versa USA.

The positive thing about the political disagreements nowadays (and the last decade) is that many countries seems to have reached a closer relation to each other, so when the day comes when the conflict are history, there will be a shorter way to go to reach agreements "worldwide", hopefully.


:Peace:

[Myshkin]

Fiat no problem here, really mate :wave: It would take a lot more than that to offend me. And watch out now, you went and mentioned "human nature" and "Communism showing that it can't work", so I suspect Spidey's next post will be a canon shot at those statements :sofa:

What you believe as human nature is what the powers that be in the system want you to believe. Humans can and have evolved, and the natural evolution from Capitalism is Communism... when the proletariat becomes enlightened and more self-aware, they will far outnumber the capitalists who will not be able to keep us in chains. Humans may be egotistic historically, but they don't have to be. What we know as human nature can be changed.

Communism has never existed. What existed was, in the words of Lenin "State Capitalism" which was supposed to be something like a shortcut to Communism. All real attempts at Communism have been crushed by the West, but that does not mean that the fight is over. On the contrary, recent events show that the march is on, the people are gaining in power while the rich do what they can to retain it. If we can just keep the faith, we shall overcome.

That's one viewpoint at least. :Peace:

P.S. About the culture clash, one thing you might want to ponder is that American opinion is far from homogenous. Political differences, racial differences, cultural differences, territorial differences, economical differences; all of these exist side-by-side over here, much more so than Norway. Have you been here before? What you perceive as "American" is just what those in power here do and say, yet you can see people who don't agree everywhere on the Internet. I am of the opinion that our governments are more at odds, due to both self-interest and also a struggle for power. Not so much the people.

[FIATLOVE]

Ahh, ty Myshkin!

And thank you for a wonderful post -^ :HB: :beer:, it's copied and saved ;) (literally)



Communism has never existed. What existed was, in the words of Lenin "State Capitalism" which was supposed to be something like a shortcut to Communism
I agree 100% maty, excellent!

[Myshkin]

:) If you like that, have a look here:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Of course, my answer was greatly simplified and I'm sure Spidey could give a more eloquent answer, but that's pretty much the idea behind it. It's a distillation of what I imagined he would answer.

P.S. Don't go posting "Communism doesn't work" and "human nature" there unless you like your butt flamed to well-done ;) Better to ask questions than make any statement. I don't post there anymore but I like to read through and think about things :)

[FIATLOVE]

Of course, my answer was greatly simplified

Well, you should have seen my post before I started erasing :D ^_^

:Peace:

[Spiderman2]

Ahhh. Myshypooh. Gimme a big brotherly hug. :") :) Who luvs ya baby!

edit: Those anarchist nutters have nothing to do with me. We dance occassionally but we never make love. I must admit, they are cute in an anarchist kind of way.